Whilst I think in general the Kalypso forums are very well moderated, with all offensive items and spam removed quickly, sometimes moderation may be a little a little on the heavy handed side. I am not referring to Timo who is an excellent moderator, but sometimes, avenues of debate that could be rewarding are prematurely cut off.

Re; Natural disasters in T4
Whilst on the most part I enjoy (as far natural disasters can be enjoyed) the T4 disasters I feel some may go on a tad to long. For example tornado's, in my experience, can last for a year which may be a tad excessive. I like the Weather station, which can be used to detect disasters for those without T4, and I also like the fact destroyed building are marked, they could easily be lost in earlier T's. I think tornadoes are a tad on the long side; discuss!

"Presidente, an enemy tornado has breached our defences!"

Yeah, that was definitely not a very good move by Walt, even if the OP was very aggressive.

Well, for my part, I could even live with their going on and on, unrealistic an annoying as they are, if it didn't also effectively take my control away for the duration. Having to rebuild some buildings because some silly event demolished them, meh, I could live with that. Watching my economy grind to a halt and my palace guards revolt because some key buildings got taken out, while I can't even do anything about it because the game won't let me, and in fact it'll be months before it lets me... now that doesn't strike me as an exciting feature no matter how charitably I try to look at it.

And it's weird, because it's the only event that does that. I mean, some others are brief or even a cut scene (e.g., the tsunami) or still allow one to try to mitigate the effects while the event is going (the eruption or drought.)

(28-08-2011 05:50 PM)HansMustermann Wrote:  And it's weird, because it's the only event that does that. I mean, some others are brief or even a cut scene (e.g., the tsunami) or still allow one to try to mitigate the effects while the event is going (the eruption or drought.)

I agree really I found that as well with the control. And I don't mind how long they last per se but the amount of destruction they cause in that extended duration, I lost seventeen buildings to one tornado, which while realistic is can be somewhat annoying!

(28-08-2011 06:31 PM)darius89 Wrote:  

(28-08-2011 05:50 PM)HansMustermann Wrote:  And it's weird, because it's the only event that does that. I mean, some others are brief or even a cut scene (e.g., the tsunami) or still allow one to try to mitigate the effects while the event is going (the eruption or drought.)

I agree really I found that as well with the control. And I don't mind how long they last per se but the amount of destruction they cause in that extended duration, I lost seventeen buildings to one tornado, which while realistic is can be somewhat annoying!

Well, the game seems to be rather easy overall, just like T3, so I think that natural disaster actually hurt your island is a good thing.

(28-08-2011 07:14 PM)Ap2000 Wrote:  Well, the game seems to be rather easy overall, just like T3, so I think that natural disaster actually hurt your island is a good thing.

I agree the game is rather on the easy side! I think that the overall difficulty could be raised through other ways than wanton destruction! T1 (I don't know if you ever played it!) had a good level of difficulty too, varying from easy to infuriatingly hard, in general but over egged disasters to the extent they frequently destroyed nigh on my entire island. If there is another Tropico, which I unfortunately doubt, I think there are lessons to be learn't from T1 with regards to difficulty, though not so much on the wanton destruction side (which the developers appear to have picked up on)!

(28-08-2011 08:15 PM)darius89 Wrote:  

(28-08-2011 07:14 PM)Ap2000 Wrote:  Well, the game seems to be rather easy overall, just like T3, so I think that natural disaster actually hurt your island is a good thing.

I agree the game is rather on the easy side! I think that the overall difficulty could be raised through other ways than wanton destruction! T1 (I don't know if you ever played it!) had a good level of difficulty too, varying from easy to infuriatingly hard, in general but over egged disasters to the extent they frequently destroyed nigh on my entire island. If there is another Tropico, which I unfortunately doubt, I think there are lessons to be learn't from T1 with regards to difficulty, though not so much on the wanton destruction side (which the developers appear to have picked up on)!

I did play some Tropico 1, but I think that game was harder mainly because revolutions were more likely to happen and elections were harder. I don't think I ever had an election in T3 + AP where I did not get at least 85% of the votes.

(28-08-2011 07:14 PM)Ap2000 Wrote:  Well, the game seems to be rather easy overall, just like T3, so I think that natural disaster actually hurt your island is a good thing.

Granted, the game isn't particularly hard, though I'm not complaining. But there must be a better way to make it exciting than, err, something as unexciting and non-interactive as just making me sit and watch a whirly animation for 5 minutes straight, without the possibility of doing anything in that time.

Peronally, let me say that I'm not fundamentally opposed to the idea of having to rebuild or whatnot. Fine, I'll just set some money aside and rebuild.

But, honestly, I don't find even an elaborate and plot-advancing cut-scene fun if I HAVE to watch it the 10'th time and can't be skipped. Watching a whirly animation is not THAT captivating or fascinating, unless it's dunno, a demo of doing it in 16k on a 3.25 MHz ZX Spectrum or something

Yeah, not sure how that last one got closed. OP stated his opinions on it, which I agree with. People started trying to flame him, then Walt closed it for no reason. Of all of the forums that Devs/workers visit, Ive never seen any as defensive as these ones. The only one that isn't, is the Lyuba-Haimont (I know I spelled it wrong) guy.

(28-08-2011 10:26 PM)Agent Orange Wrote:  Of all of the forums that Devs/workers visit, Ive never seen any as defensive as these ones.

You have never been to the Bioware forums them.
Man, that board went down the shitter, just like Bioware themselves.

i dont get the complaint that it lasts a year? did you want it to just blink on screen for one frame cause thats how long it would last if this was real time? ba year on fast doesnt take all that long.. and in the game mechanics its actually lets it be a disaster.. vrs a hick-up in the road.

I mean think about it.. if the event took even 2 days, that would blink in about a couple seconds.. click rebuild+instant and there would be zero effect on your island.. making disasters all but pointless other than a cash sink.

the way they work now, atleast it effects your economy, and happiness amoung other things.. all things are gonna take a hit the way it is now. and thats what it should be. If not just play sandbox and disable.. or just play campain missions, the ones that dont have disasters.. they all cant have a disaster can they? (is soo that to me would be a mistake)

You do realize, though, that it worked just fine for the tsunami to put it in a skippable cut-scene, right?

I mean:

- most tornadoes: 10 minutes

- time those poor guys in Japan had as warning for the recent tsunami: 10 minutes

So, anyway, essentially what works around your argument is that Haemimont already figured out a good way to deal with something that would be equally short in real time.

---

(29-08-2011 01:26 AM)Tropije Wrote:  If not just play sandbox and disable.. or just play campain missions, the ones that dont have disasters.. they all cant have a disaster can they? (is soo that to me would be a mistake)

The campaign is just that: a campaign. You have to finish mission 1 (which includes a mandatory tornado), before you do mission 2 (which also has a bunch of calamities that can't be disabled), before you do mission 3 (ditto), etc. Even if you found some missions later in the campaign that come with the disasters disabled -- and I don't think there are any -- you still have to do the missions before them, first. And the very first mission in the campaign has a mandatory tornado. You WILL sit and watch a swirling funnel for 5 minutes, if you want to play the campaign at all. And then watch the same mandatory glorified cut-scene of a swirly funnel a few more times in the next missions.

Playing the sandbox ain't a bad idea per se, but if you do ONLY that to avoid the tornado:

A) then you're not getting the campaign you paid for, and all the scripted stuff. Seems a bit harsh to have to throw away most of the game, just to not deal with a badly designed disaster.

B) what was positive and negative traits in T3 are now attributes that are levelled up by doing missions. You CAN dive directly into the sandbox as long as, well, you don't mind all your stats being 1

I didnt notice the tornado lasting all that long in the demo. Best I remember it was around 2 minutes or so & destroyed like 3 of my buildings. I remember thinking it was really unrealistic though how the tornado danced back & forth across all over the place. It would go one direction, make a 180 turn, then go straight back the way it came from, & just kind of dance around like that. Its extremely rare in real life for tornadoes to do that. They usually go more or less straight in one direction, or maybe a sort of zig zag like pattern, but I dont think I've ever heard of one stopping & making a 180 & going back the way it came from.

The 2 minute or so demo tornado wasnt that bad. If there are other missions where they do last for 5 or 10 minutes though I would have to agree that that is a little much for the tornadoes to last & they should be toned down a bit.

Agreed, the tornado deasaster takes quite a while. But as someone already mentioned: othwise it wouldn't really "hurt". And since you still can do other things during a tornado, like creating new buildings or finetuning your economy, it's not that much a problem. And when the tornado is over, your Tropicans can clean up the mess.
The only complaint I have is the extremely loud sound of the whirl. Am I the only one whose turnados nearly blast the speakers? Other SFX seem to be normal.

the length of tornadoes really is a pain, and I guess I wouldn't mind if you could 'track' the tornado and you'd end up with a line of destroyed buildings, but no the tornado only destroys certain buildings and just travels through others unharming them :/

Personally, I don't think Walt was being too heavy handed about shutting down that topic. I think what realy made him decide to do it though was AP2000's final pot which was very hnurtfull towards the developers. There is absolutely no need to sed abuse like that at other people in a forum, in which healthy discussion is supposed to be encouraged, not abuse.

(28-08-2011 10:36 PM)Ap2000 Wrote:  

(28-08-2011 10:26 PM)Agent Orange Wrote:  Of all of the forums that Devs/workers visit, Ive never seen any as defensive as these ones.

You have never been to the Bioware forums them.
Man, that board went down the shitter, just like Bioware themselves.

Your right, I dont. Bioware Died when EA bought them. Dont even pay attention to them anymore.

(29-08-2011 08:45 PM)Agent Orange Wrote:  

(28-08-2011 10:36 PM)Ap2000 Wrote:  

(28-08-2011 10:26 PM)Agent Orange Wrote:  Of all of the forums that Devs/workers visit, Ive never seen any as defensive as these ones.

You have never been to the Bioware forums them.
Man, that board went down the shitter, just like Bioware themselves.

Your right, I dont. Bioware Died when EA bought them. Dont even pay attention to them anymore.

Why don't you like Bioware anymore?

(29-08-2011 09:09 PM)Agent Orange Wrote:  

(29-08-2011 08:53 PM)Club Tropicana Wrote:  

(29-08-2011 08:45 PM)Agent Orange Wrote:  

(28-08-2011 10:36 PM)Ap2000 Wrote:  

(28-08-2011 10:26 PM)Agent Orange Wrote:  Of all of the forums that Devs/workers visit, Ive never seen any as defensive as these ones.

You have never been to the Bioware forums them.
Man, that board went down the shitter, just like Bioware themselves.

Your right, I dont. Bioware Died when EA bought them. Dont even pay attention to them anymore.

Why don't you like Bioware anymore?

EA necromancy. Turned Bioware into a husk of its former self. Bioware is dead. Unless people would rather have linear action games with dialogues systems, opposed to actual RPGs. Bioware/EA sold out beyond recognition. It started with Mass Effect 2, and arguably Dragon age Origins. which is exactly when EA assumed direct control.

You like don't Mass Effect? xD

(29-08-2011 09:10 PM)Club Tropicana Wrote:  You like don't Mass Effect? xD

Mass Effect 1 was good, and an actual RPG, which was made before EA took over. Mass Effect 2 was a slap in the face to RPG players and Bioware fans. EA turned it into Gears Of War with a inferior dialogue system. Bioware is dead, now they are a lich, under the control of EA.

... I suppose it would be a bit awkward to say I quite liked Mass Effect 2? =D

(29-08-2011 09:19 PM)Club Tropicana Wrote:  ... I suppose it would be a bit awkward to say I quite liked Mass Effect 2? =D

Why would that be awkward? Different strokes for different folks. To me (and a lot of others), ME2 wasn't even an RPG. It was a sellout move orchestrated by EA to appeal to every newb, casual and lowest common denominator they could.

And once you get past the fact ME2 isn't even an RPG, you realize its not a good action/shooter game either. The level design looked like it was made by Helen Keller, and the dialogue/story was a Star Trek Borg ripoff written by a Tribble.

In conclusion, its easy to see that Bioware will never go back to its prime, before the sellout, when they made great little RPGs like Baldur's Gate, KoTOR, etc. Now they make Dragon Age II, and all of the mediocrity that series encompasses.

We're going way off topic, but I loved Mass Effect 2.

I can see how you would be upset if you were wanting it to be a hardcore RPG. Its an action RPG which is different. I like RPGs & Action RPGs & I liked ME2 better than the first one.

(29-08-2011 09:24 PM)ArmaDeFuego Wrote:  We're going way off topic, but I loved Mass Effect 2.

I can see how you would be upset if you were wanting it to be a hardcore RPG. Its an action RPG which is different. I like RPGs & Action RPGs & I liked ME2 better than the first one.

Yes, off topic, but ME2 wasn't an action RPG. It was an action game with some light RPG mechanics. Saying ME2 was an RPG, or action RPG, is like saying Borderlands is an RPG. The majority of people that liked 2, never even played the older, real RPGs by Bioware. And its not just game design, but the constant nickel and diming, and ripping off the "customer", with blatant EA greed tactics.


On topic: You should be able to skip the visual disaster effects if you want to.

I was just joking lol. It's hard to get that across with text.

I know what you mean though. It kind of depends on what you consider an RPG. It wasn't a conventional RPG that's for sure. You could actually say it doesn't incude enough RPG elements to be called an RPG, but to me it's still got RPG qualities (eg abililty to 'progress' your character and effect the storyline). I wouldn't call it flatout RPG. It's definitely some form of an RPG in my eyes.

tornados can last a while.. I had one spawn on the far side of my island with a mine, and it did take a long time to get across the map.. i think it lasted about a year, maybe 1 1/2.. But like i said, i think it gives ya a disaster where now your plans need to change for a bit.. Or not and let the islanders deal with the clamity.

I realize you need to unlock campain missions.. But im just hoping they all dont go disaster happy. I dont mind them every now and again, but i really hate the missions that keep sending them every few years. its just not that much fun most of the time

But onto that other game company with EA, yea they have gone down hill.. DA2 and ME3 are both a step backwards.. really sad to see that happen. I hope kaylpso doesnt make the same mistake and goes for deeper games, with more control, and story.. vrs the other way.. there are still lots of inteligent gamers that love deep games.

Not to mention tornadoes dont even happen in the caribbean really.

(29-08-2011 10:46 AM)BarbeQ Wrote:  Agreed, the tornado deasaster takes quite a while. But as someone already mentioned: othwise it wouldn't really "hurt".

To each their own, I guess. For me, good gameplay involves unexpected challenges and setbacks, but still the goal is to have fun, not to actually try to make it "hurt". In fact if a game actually "hurts" to play, I'd rate it as an epic fail right there.

Edit: but, just to make it clear, I'm not opposed to other people keeping their non-interactive tornado, if they like it. If that's the gameplay you like, fine, you can keep it, I'm not gonna tell you what to like. I just wish there was a way to turn it off for those of us who don't consider it to be the apex of fun.

(29-08-2011 10:46 AM)BarbeQ Wrote:  And since you still can do other things during a tornado, like creating new buildings or finetuning your economy, it's not that much a problem.

Which just makes it feel even more stupid. I can build a new farm right next to the funnel, but I can't rebuild the one which is by now half an island away from where anything bad happens.

And yeah, I could do something pointless just to pass the time. I could also turn on the tv, go to the toilet, or really lots of things.

Or, I don't know, this may sound crazy, but please bear with me: the game could just let me do the stuff that actually makes sense there, like fixing the two destroyed garages that are making the whole economy grind to a halt by making everyone walk across half the island. Or, dunno, the destroyed farms and market that make everyone go ape-#### for lack of food. Building them somewhere else will just compound the problem by also making everyone walk to the other end of the island where I had enough space and fertile ground.

Plus, in an economic game, if I'm that rich that I can afford to build random stuff just to pass the time until the game actually lets me do whatever actually makes sense to do, and/or such ample space and resources that I can just build half a town somewhere else instead of fixing the garages, and so on... well, at that point I'd say it failed to have any challenge anyway.

(30-08-2011 07:33 AM)Agent Orange Wrote:  Not to mention tornadoes dont even happen in the caribbean really.

Yea I thought about that too when I first heard they were putting them into the game. I mean, when was the last time you heard of a devastating tornado hitting somewhere in the Caribbean that wasnt spawned by a hurricane? It's not very common at all. But then again, neither are droughts or tsunamis in the Caribbean.....