Yea, i know i've talked about um before... and honest i swearyou have fixed them in a patch recently.. After 20 years.. im definatly getting many to graduate.. (15-20 years im getting 20+ per going now)


BUT... Please.. start um at 6, and finish at 14..

and add 2 more teachers and double the number of students..

Ive been building 10+ gradschools.. more than even churches!! for just 400-500 people.. There isnt a reason why we should be building 20+ gradschools to get a 800-1k pop to school.

With obstetrics+con/ban.. your talking 300-400 kids in with over 200 in the range.. your talking 20+ schools.. its just to many.


On last thing.. are grade school grads conistered educated for radio station? if soo.. that should definatly be changed..

thoughts?

I'll address the expansion idea later -- that's already going into my mod code (a straight "upgrade"), but that's far from done because I'm still struggling even with working knowledge of things...

(19-09-2011 05:46 AM)Tropije Wrote:  Yea, i know i've talked about um before... and honest i swearyou have fixed them in a patch recently.. After 20 years.. im definatly getting many to graduate.. (15-20 years im getting 20+ per going now)

...

On last thing.. are grade school grads conistered educated for radio station? if soo.. that should definatly be changed..

thoughts?

Children become adults "randomly" between the age of 13 and 19. Seems pseudo-realistic. They can't go to highschool until they're adults. It's worth noting that they're also toddlers until 4 years of age, so are useless until 4 years old

Okay, their education is still "None", meaning that they're not educated. The grade school keeps the kids off the street and ensures that they don't get run over, &c.. Dropping in "Spelling Bee" mode means you increase intelligence, which is awesome.

(19-09-2011 06:10 AM)Swixel Wrote:  ... Children become adults "randomly" between the age of 13 and 19. Seems pseudo-realistic. They can't go to highschool until they're adults. It's worth noting that they're also toddlers until 4 years of age, so are useless until 4 years old. ...

Native born units (babies\infants) are immobile, not-on-the-map notations from birth to their fourth birthday - years 0 thru 3. Birth typically happens in a residence building and the notational unit remains there -- has to do with the FUBAR with the Mother unit, another issue.

On the fourth birthday, they transmogrify into Child units (of the proper gender) and become mobile and self-sustaining. They are properly Child units with a full mode cycle which includes a "work mode" of wandering the map and playing. Yes, you see them in the free 'needs' buildings, and they want entertainment and will appear in some (no booze or whores) free buildings. They get their own meals. They use the avatar from their year 4 thru year 12. After their thirteenth birthday they are supposed to transmogrify ASAP into an adult avatar.

BUT THERE IS A HUGE DAMN GLITCH!

On their thirteenth birthday, they are no longer part of an immediate family with a group residence, i.e. they are kicked out of their family home with no income to rent a place (Social Security in T3&4 applies only to adult avatars, not overaged Child avatars) so they have to build a shack if there are no free residences when their 'rest' meter is next triggered.

Meanwhile the TRANSMOGRIFICATION routine requires that a unit may change avatars only within a building in order that the player will not have his "suspension of disbelief" interrupted by the sight of a Farmer changing to a General while walking down the street. (Why do you think Clark Kent always jumped into a telephone booth when he had the super speed to change anywhere?) So, as Swixel reports, it may take six years for the stars to align for an overage but homeless Child avatar finally to achieve the conditions needed to transmogrify into adulthood.

So it seems that the developer's great concern with protection of the 'suspension of disbelief' has created something worse than just seeing a Child avatar skipping along, change in a flash into an adult avatar of whatever flavor.

The "child" status is only dropped when they grow up. 13-19 years of age; so yes, they're booted out the moment they're no longer a child -- the moment they can become a student. Also, there's a model assigned to 0-4 year olds. I haven't checked if it renders ... but I'm not phased either way. It's probably an attachment or something. ( I really don't care about how the baby stuff is rendered, I'm just saying that they have a model )

(19-09-2011 03:50 PM)Swixel Wrote:  The "child" status is only dropped when they grow up. 13-19 years of age; ...

So even though I said that I was describing T1, you are assuring me that you are absolutely sure the transition from child to adult is an entirely random event in T4? You have investigated all the details involved?

That is a radical change from T1 to T3 and T4. The player observations of T1 indicated that it was not random, but mading. "Growing-Up" is nothing more than changing avatars, IMHO.

Yea.. it probably has to do with what you said swivel.. its about when they are consitered kids.

But that said, i would have no problem with keeping baby icon till 5, then at six change them into children. That would definatly help with keeping them outta school for another 2 years, which would definatly free up slots.


on the back end, with turning into an adult.. I dunno what the answere is. Perhaps if they are in grade school, they have a higher chance to turn into an adult at 14, and goto highschool?


Another thing.. I really like the grade school spelling bee, with professor+schoolarly+ministry+learning edict.. they realy do get more skilled at a worth while rate.


But part of this thinking on an update for them is making children a bit more of something to focus on. And what i mean about this, what if unschooled children lowered production, or increased crime? Or children that didnt goto grade school being more likely to become a criminal, or start protests?


another thing i wouldnt mind seeign changed would be the range that they travel to goto school.. I definatly would rather see some sorta limiting range factor in this. Like a child would not cross the island to goto a grade school that would take years to walk to.

Unless of course they added something like buses, which is something i would like to see.. Add in bus stop points, and have buses pick them up. Definatly would add some cool factor to things

(19-09-2011 05:44 PM)CoconutKid Wrote:  So even though I said that I was describing T1, you are assuring me that you are absolutely sure the transition from child to adult is an entirely random event in T4? You have investigated all the details involved?

That is a radical change from T1 to T3 and T4. The player observations of T1 indicated that it was not random, but mading. "Growing-Up" is nothing more than changing avatars, IMHO.

Yes I'm saying it has changed fairly significantly. They still become homeless the moment they become "adults". There's really not much to investigate on that front --- growing up is more than just shifting avatars, though not by much if you're talking about what the player sees. There's a bit (though not much) more involved.

They just grow up (in all three instances) when they're resting, so they're already inside. This way you don't get the Clark Kent style sprints.

I haven't looked at T1, and don't intend to do so given that I have (at this stage) no interest in trying to mod it. The engine was also rewritten (I believe), given the lack of Lua back then

So for grade schools they just "graduate" the moment they "age out"/"grow up", clearing the spot. If your child is too far from home, or a resting spot, then it'll take them longer to grow up because they can't rest (though again, it's random, but the more resting they get, based on the need to walk/travel less, the more chances they get).

I don't see the point of wasting upkeep on multiple gradeschools for few graduates when an Academy of Science set to Educational Standards has a comparable effect.

The kids aren't doing anything else. The school gives you the first boost, and smarter people are better. You can also give them a professional boost if you don't like that.

Either way, the gradeschool isn't a problem, it's a way of tying up children.

(20-09-2011 07:00 AM)Swixel Wrote:  ...smarter people are better.

What exactly does intelligence affect aside from the ability to graduate and gaffes for Minister? I just don't like Grade Schools in general due to the abysmal graduation rate.

I'm not going to comment on the intellience influence at the moment (mostly because I can't be bothered to go through a bunch of files to check things at the moment). But the only job children appear to be capable of having is at the gradeschool.

(20-09-2011 07:14 AM)ZalmanK Wrote:  

(20-09-2011 07:00 AM)Swixel Wrote:  ...smarter people are better.

What exactly does intelligence affect aside from the ability to graduate and gaffes for Minister? I just don't like Grade Schools in general due to the abysmal graduation rate.

Higher intelligance means that they will be able to build up jobskills much sooner, therefore making a more productive society.

(20-09-2011 12:03 AM)Swixel Wrote:  ... growing up is more than just shifting avatars, though not by much if you're talking about what the player sees. There's a bit (though not much) more involved.

If you don't have to do time consuming research, could you kindly say what that "bit" is, please?

Quote:They just grow up (in all three instances) when they're resting, so they're already inside. ...

by three instances, do you mean the three editions of the game? Or something else?

Quote:I haven't looked at T1, and don't intend to do so ...

I'm certainly not asking or suggesting that you do so. I think I am the only "player" who has any interest in what changes Haemimont made in the underlying logic between T1 and T3 & 4. I don't wish to have that area of interest become overcrowded.

Quote:... If your child is too far from home, or a resting spot, then it'll take them longer to grow up because they can't rest (though again, it's random, but the more resting they get, based on the need to walk/travel less, the more chances they get).

You imply there is something different from home/residence called "resting spot" where a unit\object can rest. Is that what you mean; and if so, is it a building or something else?

(20-09-2011 03:10 PM)CoconutKid Wrote:  If you don't have to do time consuming research, could you kindly say what that "bit" is, please?

Inheritance of structures makes me shy away from that one -- I've got no idea how long it'd take to check, sorry. It's primarily an avatar change, but some variables change too. As a result the child also graduates from grade school, gets kicked out of home immediately, and has to find a job/go to high school. I get the feeling I'm missing something beyond that, but I'm still kicking my failed attempts to reverse part of the user interface around the screen, so I might look into it later ...

For game play purposes, it just means they're no longer a member of the family living unit (and all that's tied to that like leaving home) and they graduate from grade school (if attending). The rest that I can see at the moment (not much) isn't particularly interesting, but I remember some other stuff that's dependent on being a child.

(20-09-2011 03:10 PM)CoconutKid Wrote:  by three instances, do you mean the three editions of the game? Or something else?

There are at least three "GrowUp" stages in a "full" Tropican life. Toddler->Child->Adult->Elderly

(20-09-2011 03:10 PM)CoconutKid Wrote:  I'm certainly not asking or suggesting that you do so. I think I am the only "player" who has any interest in what changes Haemimont made in the underlying logic between T1 and T3 & 4. I don't wish to have that area of interest become overcrowded.

I still play T1 too; I just don't bother thinking of them as the same game in that sense. T3 made me realise how much had changed, and T4 is another set.

(20-09-2011 03:10 PM)CoconutKid Wrote:  You imply there is something different from home/residence called "resting spot" where a unit\object can rest. Is that what you mean; and if so, is it a building or something else?

Inheritance of structures makes me shy away from that one -- I've got no idea how long it'd take to check, sorry. The "rest" function/behaviour is still somewhat of a mystery to me, but the implication I'm using here is what I'm feeling/sensing from the code. It may be something that isn't there yet (i.e. hasn't been added), or it might be that I'm mistaking something in the game for something it's not.

(20-09-2011 03:35 PM)Swixel Wrote:  Inheritance of structures makes me shy away from that one ...

Thank you very much for the reply. Good points, precisely stated.

I stubbed my toe on "inheritance" -- I think you don't mean 'legacy' but rather "the inherent nature of" ; so you are saying that there are lots of interlinking effects between seemingly simple sets of algorithms. It's like the old illustration of nuclear activity using an area of mouse-traps set with a rubber ball on top of each one, then throwing in an extra ball -- as the traps are tripped, they throw another ball to trip another trap.

If I may speculate: The Rest function or Mode is the "recharge" of the needs meter of the same name. It requires the person\unit\object to be in a building which is designated as "housing" AND which is linked to the person as shown in the info panels as his\her residence. That is, the person may not simply jump into any house and take a snooze; it has to be his\her OWN home. The speed at which the rest meter is recharged is a function of the "Housing Quality Rating (HQR)" of the building. Tropicans don't rest as well in a Shack as they do in a Luxury House. Contrary to what I have thought & stated before, there may be a limit on the total time a unit\person may spend in any "mode" -- the result for the Rest Mode would be that a low HQR will not totally recharge the meter, so the unit\person will go into the next mode partially rested and so need to rest sooner again.

Now what about a default routine for the case of a unit\person without an officially assigned home who has hit a critical\red level of the rest meter. Is it life or death? It's not likely death because of the complex chain of events; I know of no reports of players who followed a unit with the intent to deny it a building in which to rest, i.e. harry it to death. Theoretically, the code might provide a final "sleeping rough" option before death. We do know that before that the unit will build a shack, even walking far to "hide" it.

But you are correct that the function\mode is not at all clearly understood. Most players go with overlaying their personal attitudes over what actually happens in the game.

(20-09-2011 07:00 AM)Swixel Wrote:  The kids aren't doing anything else. The school gives you the first boost, and smarter people are better. You can also give them a professional boost if you don't like that.

Either way, the gradeschool isn't a problem, it's a way of tying up children.

Sorry long post.. But I have been playing with schools!

Well like I was saying, I think there is some room for expansion on what it means to be a kid, and how it effects the island... to me its a huge area that is still untapped. I mean seriously think about it. An island that has 700 people, and 100 kids, is going to be completely different than one that has 700 people and 400 kids..


But I've really been playing with grade schools, making one of my goals being... "No child left behind" Do you guys have any clue how hard it is to get the entire population into grade school? I’m literally making 15-20 schools.. And even on islands this big, its a challenge to make room for um all. But its not soo much the room, as it is the aesthetics.. Get a few apartment buildings and a couple tenements with baby making things going, and you literally need 3 schools right there for all the kids.

It’s just too much. Up the maintenance on them, double workers, and double student slots, and even just cutting back from 4-6 would be a huge boon, that could cut 25-50 kids from the system, which right now, that’s 2-4 schools. In all honesty, they do work, and pretty well in fact. They really don’t cost much to run once they are built, and with banks it’s only a few thousand each. Really it’s a very good return on investment in the end.


I’m still not to sure on they way they work completely, But it seams to me, at least with the intelligence side of things, Its basically on graduation it hits. (Though I’ve seen stat changes happen at other times, but I’m not sure if its campaign related, or not)

What I’ve found being the most effective.. Putting grade schools right next to homes.. And having a lot of them. It many times takes years for your first few graduates.. I've seen them run 10 years with out a single one. But after that they start to spit them out fairly rapidly. With all my schools I've had over 200 people graduate over time. (On smaller islands) and 400+ on larger. For me a good rate is 25+ per school about 25-30 years into the game.

But I have noticed when I have a good school system going like on this island bellow.. Almost every person that has a grade school graduation is above average, or exceptional. This says to me, that there is also something else going on, where people can go up farther than just one lvl on graduation. Now I’m not sure if how many times they attend school, or how many years.. Or how exactly it works over all, but it seams that there is more than just a single bump on many of them. Just the shear numbers of students with those lvls are just too many.

The one side effect though, you wont have many stupid people around for those unskilled jobs, which means in the end, it can lead to lower satisfaction in some cases.


To me this is a prime reason why schools should have range zones for how far a kid will travel. Set up the slums, no schools, or bad schools. You know to help your island work better. And in the end everyone would be just slightly happier overall.


BTW, this pic was taken after I just let the island run as is. For 25 years. Just watching happiness go up, and see how the island ran. For the record, I had about 75-125k in farming, 7-25k industry, (a single chemical plant, and a bunch of farms and ranches, mainly for food, and just getting unemployed working. 4 salt farms, which basically I used to build the island, and almost 200k a year from entertainment/media/tourism/rent, My top buildings were a couple radio stations at 400k each, and a night club at 325k, and a cabaret at 225k.

That’s old school t1, factory numbers.. Note, there are 7 schools on this island, with almost all children getting an education.. I did not have obstertics, or ban on.. If soo, i would of needed atleast double the schools, and to me thats kinda the issue.. as it is 7 schools for this kinda pop is kinda a lot, but if i had more kids, i think building 15 schools for this size pop is kinda extreme. Yes?

this is the entire island, outside the 4 saltfarms, and a ton of farms/ranches, witha couple hordiculture stations, and a single gold mine i built very late, just because a side quest popped, i took years before and salt mines wouldnt complete it, so i built the gold mine, just to get it off the screen.

(20-09-2011 04:42 PM)CoconutKid Wrote:  

(20-09-2011 03:35 PM)Swixel Wrote:  Inheritance of structures makes me shy away from that one ...

Thank you very much for the reply. Good points, precisely stated.

I stubbed my toe on "inheritance" -- I think you don't mean 'legacy' ...

No, class inheritance in code While the names of these sample classes are wrong, think of it a bit like:

Objects -> Buildings -> Category A -> Category A1 -> My Building

My Building inherits from Cat A1, Cat A1 from Cat A, so indirectly My Building pulls from Cat A. They inherit commands/methods attached to their parents, who get it from their parents, so the question of "Can I rest here" could be answered in a building that I haven't paid any attention to yet.

(20-09-2011 04:42 PM)CoconutKid Wrote:  If I may speculate: The Rest function or Mode is the "recharge" of the needs meter of the same name. It requires the person\unit\object to be in a building which is designated as "housing" AND which is linked to the person as shown in the info panels as his\her residence. [...] But you are correct that the function\mode is not at all clearly understood. Most players go with overlaying their personal attitudes over what actually happens in the game.

(Italics added for emphasis)

But seriously, yes, it's largely not understood because for the most part we just accept it as a part of their need. How/what/why/when they need it isn't as important as the fact that they do. I'd speculate a different setup from observations in gameplay, but I've not bothered stalking a unit pre-transmogrification because I'm usually busy governing, rather than watching children run into buildings (which sounds too creepy for words).

I think all we need to know is that it happens, and any odd behaviours to "resting" are of interesting, but ultimately irrelevant to the experience [i]unless[/u] they perform the same function as being at home (which they may or may not do). Anyway, I don't want to spoil the magic of this for anyone so if I do look into it, I probably won't write too much up on it.

(21-09-2011 01:01 AM)Swixel Wrote:  ... They inherit commands/methods attached to their parents, who get it from their parents, so the question of "Can I rest here" could be answered in a building that I haven't paid any attention to yet. ...

Ah yes. I did miss your point. I always considered that "inheritance" to be a minor weighting of the 'creation' randomizing. Similarly, the "ripple" effect rapidly diminishes as it passes away from the action. The original developers made a lot of use of weighted randomizers - if I understand correctly.

I opine that you won't find any "resting" in any building other than a housing building. Further, if you find a child "resting" in any house other than one also occupied by one or both of its parents or by itself, it is the result of a post T1 change. I can't believe there's any moving in with a cousin, aunt, uncle or grandparent to rest or to transmogrify to adult.

I finished poking through that hellhole of a file today actually. I also played for an hour or two and observed it. It's just "home". As a result of the child animates as "leaving home" because they go home, rest, leave.

It's sort of neat, and remains in line with T1

I'm sort of sad that I messed something up there, but now I know what it is (not important here) I'm glad I went through with checking

(21-09-2011 02:44 PM)Swixel Wrote:  ... I'm sort of sad that I messed something up there, ...

Thanks for not leaving with it hanging out.

Interesting concept. Animation activation. Is there one "leaving garage as car" ?? Opps! That's OT for education system and/or coming of age.

(21-09-2011 03:38 PM)CoconutKid Wrote:  

(21-09-2011 02:44 PM)Swixel Wrote:  ... I'm sort of sad that I messed something up there, ...

Thanks for not leaving with it hanging out.

Interesting concept. Animation activation. Is there one "leaving garage as car" ?? Opps! That's OT for education system and/or coming of age.

But to keep it on topic ... it's same question really. Yes, it's basically just a case of them walking into a building and then them walking out for both schools and other things (e.g. becoming soldiers, getting into a car). So a child grows up by going inside then coming out, saving the user from going "is it a bird?" all the time.

Tropico simulates people fairly well (all things considered -- i.e. that they're handling upwards of a thousand in better-than-realtime!). So it's not so much "activation" as "keeping what you see clean". If they had superman, he'd go into a telephone box/phonebooth and change to save you from seeing a rapid switch between roles

So part of the reason for the delay is them not getting home to rest quickly enough. If they have to walk a year (note: children cannot drive) to get home, that's another year you wait.

ok.. it definatly seams like students will go up more than one lvl..

Now its just a mater of how it all works.. is it connected by how many times they visit the school? or years? Cause some only go up one lvl, while others go up more. I had people go from poor to exceptional.. and abysmal to above average..

another picture... after the mission completed i just wanted to see how many schools i needed to get um all in school.. about 640 people on the island.. It took 13 schools. i had a few scattered random seats, i think it added up to 6 total. but would drop to as few as two depending on when i checked.

to me this means one of two things..

A, schools need to be adjusted,

B, the designers dont want everyone inschool?


any thoughts ?

I would like to add :-

C, allow some form of gainful employment for citizens with Grade School level education, not merely being a bit better at doing "uneducated" jobs or getting through higher education. For example, is a High School education really necessary for a Shopkeeper ?

The Tropican World "uneducated" should be considered the equivalent of basic literacy in the 'real' world or a semanticaly improved simulation. One constantly has to recall that the education level descriptors substitute for class levels. The High School and College buildings have less to do with "education" than they do with representing the gate-way \ hurtle to pass up the steps to a "higher class" and all the comforts that provides.

The Tropican children should be considered as gaining basic literacy through 'church' attendance (whilst satisfying their religion need) -- or perhaps by the care of their "stay-at-home" mother. Then again, perhaps it is the magical influence of "Learning with Larry" that makes all the children ready for High School. Talk about the Pied Piper of Hamlin!

The Haemimont "Grade School" building is the answer the mico-managing players' demands for something to occupy the Children.

i would love to play this game on the xbox360 but unfortunately, someone working at kalypso told me, this game was not going to be released now to early 2012.

Whoops,.,, Forgot to post the screenie!

I really think this a bit much just to get kids in school.. Not to mention, i dont have either obstetrics, or con ban going.. Id probably need another 5+ schools.. perhaps ill take that island i just used and run it for another 20 years just to see what happens changing those 2 things..

---

(24-09-2011 04:13 PM)Bushface Wrote:  I would like to add :-

C, allow some form of gainful employment for citizens with Grade School level education, not merely being a bit better at doing "uneducated" jobs or getting through higher education. For example, is a High School education really necessary for a Shopkeeper ?

Im not sure i agree with that, Mainly cause of the engine, highschool is a way to flag people from working.

though i guess i could see them changing it, But what would be the draw back? learn slower? lower service value? perhaps that could work, but might take a lot more micro management. But that said, im not sure dev time changing that would really make the game better. I think more improvements on the options that grade schools effect would be a better use of time.


Like i was saying, Personally i think there should be some other effects on kids that dont attend school. Like i was saying, a higher chance to become criminals, Or rebels, Perhaps ones that do attend a higher chance the become adults and goto highschool at 14.. definatly seams like room for improvement on this aspec.

(20-09-2011 07:00 AM)Swixel Wrote:  The kids aren't doing anything else. The school gives you the first boost, and smarter people are better. You can also give them a professional boost if you don't like that.

Either way, the gradeschool isn't a problem, it's a way of tying up children.

In my opinion, the best feature of the Grade School is the ability to mass-produce Loyalists! Surely I'm not the only one that turns every child into a Presidente fanboy or fangirl?

I just wish the Grade School graduated Tropicans at a set pattern, like the High School and the College does. I only graduate one or two students every few game years.

If someone's modding that, can you link me a fix?

I was watching my game today.....saw two kids go into a Fisherman's Wharf (both getting their household meals, I assume) ..they both came out as adults....one was unemployed, and the other was a rebel lol.

Made me think that they can age up in any building when the time is right.......and that I need to open up some more job spaces....

haha, good eye.. i love it when fun stuff like that happens.