Suggestion removed in light of Kalypso's contempt for their paying retail customers in the United States, who are expected to happen upon information with email information pertaining to a critical fix, read over it, send a private email, then wait for a response. Customers deserve better than this, many will not even find out about the fix for a defective and completely non-functioning product, many more may not ever receive the fix due to various email issues.

This is a very cool idea and I think this has a lot of potential as well. Defiantly a dragon for their leader! The units looks solid as well.

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That's all really cool and all but I don't think they'll even finish the second expansion let alone do a third, they screwed up big time releasing such a broken unfinished game, they'll never recover they should just cut their losses and give up.

I like the thought process, but the units seem a bit reduntant, and I am not sure what the theme is. Tanking and regen?

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I guess you don't know much of Disciples lore? Greenskins already have a god. It's called Gromdok, the god of wolves. He eve has a son, which was killed by elves as I recall... Hmmm also if you want to know Medusa and lizardman has a goddess:Agshlisga

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They do worship him. In the single scenarious you played a map in which elves used greenskin faith to work for them. Greenskins there looked like they are quite faithful to their God. I would mix it with dragons also, Dragons are closely connected to elves.

I really like the idea of a playable greenskins race, and seeing how Akella appears to be trying to milk this game in terms of addons for all it's worth, it seems quite possible. As the remaining races in the game so far haven't been expanded with new units, adding factions to play as would greatly enhance playability.
I think I'd just stick with Orcs for melée units and keep goblins to mage/ranged. I'd have Trolls with the same status as Titans/Fiends/Griffins, upgrading into Great Trolls or Deep Trolls or something.
As for normal support units, I think it'd be cool if we came up with something entirely new and monstrous, with emphasis on elemental melée/ranged damage or something. Maybe some sort of lizard-type marsh unit? something serpentine would be good.
As with many other D3 units, I feel the Greenskins need a major redesign to differentiate them from standard, generic fantasy "orks". I'd flesh out the idea of an ancient tribal social structure and lore, and make each unit more original in terms of design. I'd want the race to be like a sort of dark version of the wild elves, representing the part of nature that is dark and savage and wild and wicked.
For example, units like Trolls currently just look like fat ogres; it'd be much, much more awesome I think if they appeared to be hewn out of nature itself, with almost tree-like bodies dripping with dark green moss and slime, with small boulders and pieces of rock and lichen and tangled black hair, more like how they were in D2, and maybe with curled horns from their D1 design.

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(27-07-2010 04:58 AM)ValentineHeart Wrote:  In terms of new factions, there's a lot they could do, and they're going to have to add new factions at some point if they want to keep this franchise profitable. I always thought it would be cool to have a renegade faction of demons, a less evil, somewhat sadistic anarchist variety that corrupts the land instead of destroying it. There'd be a lot in the way of plot potential there.

Agreed. Though I think their first few expansions will focus on bringing back the races missing from the past iterations of the disciples series, at some point it may be possible (Depending on success of the game) to implement these ideas of yours. Look at how many expansions D2 had! So it is very possible, and creative minds like yours posting these ideas - also the balancing thread here in the forums - I think are great tools, if the devs are willing read and utilize them as a resource.

I want to say kudos to you, and a big +1 for all your work. I really like all your tech trees, and after reading them over I really have no complaints (though I am sure that the powers at be, provided what I mentioned before - such as continued success, as well as actual effort on their part which judging by their current level of communication (almost non existent ) and effort - an unplayable game despite having launched in other parts of the world over 7 months ago ) would/will do some tweaking/balancing, which is always a good thing. Without being a person myself who really enjoys doing that tweaking (I don't like to beta test or that sort of thing) I will trust that it will all work out, because conceptually your very solid.

(25-07-2010 03:00 AM)Douchelan666 Wrote:  That's all really cool and all but I don't think they'll even finish the second expansion let alone do a third, they screwed up big time releasing such a broken unfinished game, they'll never recover they should just cut their losses and give up.

If you read what I wrote above, you will see how I totally disdain their lack of communication and effort - having launched 7 months ago in another part of the world, to have a launch that leaves an entire continent with an unplayable and bugridden game is really unacceptable, however I would say to you not to give up just yet...yes they havn't done anything yet to warrant any trust on our part, but I want to hope that somehow disciples won't become another series just ruined by laziness.

I posted an eerily similar proposal over at the old .dat forums - even splitting the melee tree into goblins and orcs. I was so into it that I even drew several concept artpieces and submitted them in the same thread

Then something happened and swallowed up all the old posts there :/

But I focused on Gromdok, Father of Wolves, in the backstory - to use existing greenskin lore. Also, if you played one of the campaigns (don't remember which race but it's in one of the expansions), Gromdok was mentioned explicitly. So it's not just in a throwaway quest.

Qumi might or might not remember that thread. He and Shadow Lord were mods over there. I used a different screen name there, but my siggies' the same. I decided to reuse my Strategy First forum screen name in this new place.

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There are many demigods running about Nevendaar, methinks. Gromdok is one, and Ashliga is another (goddess of the lizard men and medusae, conspicuously missing in Disciples 3 so far). One can argue that the capital guardians are basically demigods themselves. Then there's Doragon in the first Disciples game, which was the final boss in the Clan's campaign. Niddhog's another semi-divine creature; which the Clans fought in the final campaign mission in D2. Which reminded me - the Clans' storyline have always been a bit out of sync with the rest of the races. Wotan - an obvious expy for Woden/Odin - doesn't seem to fit in with the rest of the gods' stories. Highfather was obviously the biggest guy around and he was the master of the pre-Fall Bethrezen. I assumed that the Lovers (Solonielle/Mortis and Gallean were angelic beings similar to Beth). Was Wotan part of that clique? The Clans seem to deal with their own prophecies and lore, with Ragnarok and Niddhog which are completely undisguised Norse legend elements. Who brought about Ragnarok? Who raised the wyrm Niddhog?

If anything, the Clans' theology/mythos needs to be better incorporated into Nevendaar.

I remember writing Gromdok as an anthropological entity representing brute, animal fury in Nevendaar - a byproduct of all the violence that the war-torn land had seen. He's still a godling and my idea for the greenskins' campaign is to focus on Gromdok's manipulation of his disciples into helping him ascend to full-fledged godhood. He'd be the greenskins' capital guardian, putting him sort of on par with the other demigods guarding capitals for the other factions.

So, how does one make a god? Gromdok needs more power, and where can he get it? Causing more chaos, war and bloodshed would technically fuel him since he's the physical manifestation of beastly rage and hatred. And the finale can culminate with him stealing the essence or powers of other equally powerful beings in Nevendaar to help him finally attain godhood; make him graphically and physically eat Illumielle or something. I always thought that Illumielle is the least cool guardian of all the factions. While Myzrael, Ashgan and Ashkael looks awesome in Disciples 3 (particularly the chained-to-a-throne Ashkael), Illumielle just appear kinda, weak and ordinary. Kill her off, I say, and get a new Capital guardian for the elves that isn't lame.

Alternatively, have Gromdok appear to be a more cunning and sly character. Have him strike deals with one or two of the gods in Nevendaar (Bethrezen would be a good candidate) and in exchange for the services of the greenskins, the god he's helping would aid him in joining the divine club, only to have him betray his benefactor eventually. End the campaign with a poignant; "... and a new god is born in Nevendaar" sort of note.

I really like your effort to wrote all this stuff down but i dont really want any "new races" as playable, maybe to have this as npc and neutral to kill them on map but i dont like idea to put them as playable race. First this game is DISCIPLES (of respectable GOD) so they miss they God, and another story f resurection of god is stupuid. Any race (maybe) want to see r dark Elves (undead elves from d2) but i dont know what |WHOLE story in d3 will be, they can implement something like this. but this is not really important.........

at mACAk,

How is more playable races necessarily a bad thing? Why can't we have more NPC's? I like the game to expand and having a new playable race is one of the best places to start.

Though if I have to choose between a new race or making the existing unit trees even more complex (more choices to make in terms of upgrade path), I'd choose the latter. But why can't we have both, is what I'm saying. An extra race campaign means we get to spend more time in Nevendaar

And I like to respectfully disagree that you think my idea is stupid. Gallean is about resurrecting a dead god, but if you've read my story suggestion, you'd realise that I'm talking about a being wanting to be a god - not like Gallean who was already a god before he got his heart ripped out by Wotan.

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(28-07-2010 12:48 AM)Merchant of Tartarus Wrote:  at mACAk,

How is more playable races necessarily a bad thing? Why can't we have more NPC's? I like the game to expand and having a new playable race is one of the best places to start.

Though if I have to choose between a new race or making the existing unit trees even more complex (more choices to make in terms of upgrade path), I'd choose the latter. But why can't we have both, is what I'm saying. An extra race campaign means we get to spend more time in Nevendaar

And I like to respectfully disagree that you think my idea is stupid. Gallean is about resurrecting a dead god, but if you've read my story suggestion, you'd realise that I'm talking about a being wanting to be a god - not like Gallean who was already a god before he got his heart ripped out by Wotan.

Sorry i was little in hurry and i type wrong and fast. I dont say that new race is 100% bad thing, but in disciples like THIS right now, i thing that new race of greenskin is just a burden, becouse we need 2 more races to come back and to much story to cover. And i am sorry i say that your idea is stupid, i just thing about one MORE RESURECTION of God, we have resurection of Galean, and addon will be called resurection of mortis, do you think this world have only ressurection as method? I just want to say that WAY of becoming God is (when we see whole story so far) stupid.

But for disciples IV or some other addon of maybe this will be nice idea, but first we need some good story to introduce them in world of disciples as playable race. So first we need more units in game as neutral and then we can have them as playable race........

and btw i want NEW tier for all tree for all races before this , but if they do this right this can be very good....

(27-07-2010 05:47 PM)Merchant of Tartarus Wrote:  There are many demigods running about Nevendaar, methinks. Gromdok is one, and Ashliga is another (goddess of the lizard men and medusae, conspicuously missing in Disciples 3 so far).

BTW it is better to make Ashliga God for all greenskin, they mention her before and we can have (maybe fusion orcs/goblins with medusas), instead rise new God.....

(28-07-2010 05:39 PM)mACAk Wrote:  BTW it is better to make Ashliga God for all greenskin, they mention her before and we can have (maybe fusion orcs/goblins with medusas), instead rise new God.....

The thing is, Gromdok IS a god. This is canon. I just think he's a minor god, not on par with the Big 4. My story idea isn't that some non-divine character wants to ascend to godhood, but that of a demigod wanting to join the higher pantheon.

Ashliga (can't remember the correct spelling) is also a demigod like Gromdok. I don't see why she should be the greenskins' god over Gromdok at all.

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I for one, thought this race to be a great idea. Maybe not exactly as you have written it down, but preety close.
I second this race.

(renember heroes of might and magic, they had a lot more races, but Disciples 3 one 3 so far :O)

The "stupid" was directed at me, ValentineHeart, and I'm not offended at all because I personally feel I can defend my ideas. And I'm quite confident that mACAK isn't trolling, just a little unpolished in elucidating what he thinks. Let's just put this little episode behind us, eh?

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I'm not opposed to killing off Gallean or Wotan, but don't anyone dare touch the Highfather, Mortis and Bethrezen (Beth especially!). One of the biggest draw the first game had for me is the gods versus gods mythos. That race selection screen of four deities on the domed ceiling of some sort of church/temple totally made it for me.

I thought your idea is good, if a bit convoluted (especially the dragon versus Gromdok finale) and too long for the number of missions Disciples campaigns usually have. Also most, if not all fans would prefer that they use existing lore to build the new race. And I would prefer a more wolfish theme as opposed to a reptilian/draconian one since the lizard men/medusae/green dragons/Ashliga faction is already doing that. My reasoning is both aesthetic and practical.

Spoilers ahoy!
In the Disciples 3, during one of the elven missions you learn the true history of Nevandaar. It seems that the self-proclaimed gods are in truth angels that answered Bethrezen's call when he asked them to help him shape the world of Nevandaar. As for the idea of deicide and the transference of divine essence, we have to first ask a question here: what does being a god mean in the world of Nevandaar? What powers does a god possess? Can he lose them or gain new ones? Can he truly be killed? When and if these and many more questions regarding the gods in Nevandaar are answered that we can contemplate the idea of deicide and mortals gaining deific powers.

At Plague,

Not really spoilers for Disciples 3. Spoilers for Disciples 2 maybe because all that you have written here was already explained in-game in the previous installment. I don't know about self-proclaimed, but the races they created do consider them godlike. Except maybe the Empire. Those ungrateful shits forget that it was Bethrezen who created them in the first place

My memory may be a bit foggy, as it has been a while since I played D2 Gold, but I don't remember that it was said or hinted anywhere in the previous game that they were angels (Wotan, Gallean and Solonielle). Bethrezen yes, but not for them. As for the self-proclaimed part, they are essentially angels that helped in the shaping of Nevendaar, if you paid close attention to the story in D3, you would see that they were not the only angels that left their mark and creations in Nevandaar. So we have to pose a question, where are all the other gods, if creating a race in Nevandaar implies godhood?

It was not explicitly said that they are angels or that they are on the same level as Bethrezen, but the creation of Nevendaar was talked about in one of the Disciples 2 campaigns - saying how Wotan, Solonielle and Gallean all pitched in to help populate this new world (implying that they are Bethrezen's colleague of some sort). Also, the creation story was available for everyone to read in the old Disciples 2 official website. Of this I am certain.

Quote:So we have to pose a question, where are all the other gods, if creating a race in Nevandaar implies godhood?

The other gods just haven't gotten representation as a playable faction yet; Gromdok and Aghsliga being the two most well known. Then again, it was also not explicitly said that Gromdok created the greenskins (he carries the epithet of Father of Wolves, so that might be significant) or that Aghsliga created the lizard people.

Warning: Long post.

I'll start by listing known lore and also repeating some stuff already said for clarity.

All gods = angels.

Gromdok
- Father of Wolves
- Greenskins worship him as a god, so he possibly is a real one

Grokdaz
- Son of Gromdok
- Killed a bunch of elves, could be anything between 100 and 10 000
- Shortly after killing the elves he was himself killed by "fire from the sky"
Comments: Grokdaz possibly is a demi-god, like the capital guardians or Gallean's Beast, Nebiros, Nidhogg, Grave Golem and so on. He could also be a "real god" (=angel) if he literary is a son, not a "son" as in a creation. Grokdaz obivously isn't Gallean's Beast, but the Greenskin act as if he'd died recently, around the time of Gallean's Beast's rampage. It probably is an event much more back in time. "Fire from the sky" could be anything, lightning or meteor. Is some kind of elf slaughter mentioned in D1 or D2 involving fire?


Comments on ValentineHeart's story:
The way you wrote it makes it sound lame, but the core idea is good. I like the idea of a dragon being involved (hopefully black ). The hard part is finding a good explanation why a dragon would want to deal with simple Greenskins. I think Grokdaz is the key here, obviously the Greenskin want to resurrect the son of their beloved god. The dragon could be a way to do it, either by it providing knowledge or the Greenskins somehow channeling the dragons mighty lifeforce into Grokdaz's corpse (think Uther's blood and Gallean).

I personally favor leeching the dragon's lifeforce, but to do that the Greenskin need some brain. Perhaps Gromdok has mourned enough and now sends a message to his children in their dreams?

I think a chained dragon would also be an awesome capital guardian, they all even happen to have Steadfastness! ^^

Greenskin units:
Let's first examine how the other races are built. I assume unit trees are the same as in D2. The amount of units in each tree for each race seems to reflect common playstyles used with them. The only exceptions seems to be Legions with their demon line, but I assume it's intended to be used often.

Empire
Main: Melee, Secondary: Support (healers)

Legion
Main: Mages, Secondary: Support (demons)

Elf
Main: Archers, Secondary: Support (healers)

Undead
Main: Mages, Secondary: Melee

Clans
Main: Melee, Secondary: Support (giants)

Each race seems to have two strong and commonly used trees. For Greenskins the main tree obviously is Melee, but what about the secondary? The easy choice would be support with the monstrous trolls, but I think that's boring. My choice would be...

[drumroll]


...mages. That's right. Greenskins are known to be shamanistic and it would be an interesting choice over the commonly used "full melee". Trolls would be what wizards are to Empire, slightly longer tree than the small archery line.

Mages should also have some new and unique ability in the Disciples universe. Since Gromdok is the god of brutality and viciousness I propose "Berserk" as an ability for the mages. Traditionally Berserk makes the affected unit strike the closest target, be it friend or foe. It certainly is something new in Disciples and fits the theme.

In D2 normal Orcs were described belonging to the "Small Mouth" rank, while the tougher Orc Champions belonged to "Large Mouth". These could be used for names for the melee units. Would love to see an Orc King as the end of the melee line, after all they are described as the strongest of their kin in D2.

I think Orcs should be melee, while the quick and more cunning Goblins should be archers and mages. Trolls, Ogres and Cyclops should be support.