The present game does not lend itself to being an evil despot. Sure I like being a good leader but occasionally I'd like to be an evil dictator. With a little extra effort, this can be "Sim Dictator". The present game does not have as many tools in order to be an evil dictator. So here are some of my ideas.

Gun Control edict - It all starts with gun control. You can't abuse an armed populace. You must first disarm the people and then you can abuse them.


Popular Dictator: This background is when the country becomes a failed state and the citizens cry out for a strong man. Basically people are willing to give up the rights for the sake of a solution to their problems. Example Napoleon.


Ignore Election result: Here El Presidente has been practicing democracy for some time. Then the election does not go his way. When he looses, their should be an option available to ignore the election result and proceed to set up a dictatorship. Presently, if you lose an elect it is game over.


President for Life edict: This edict is self explanitory. This edict basically says I am in charge and stop asking about elections.


Gifts from the President: When a general or faction leader is unhappy, I would like to know who that person is and offer them a gift. It can be a money, watch, car, house or private jet.


Blackmail: The president gets dirt on a faction leader or General in order to keep them in line. For example, maybe a Priest has a gambling problem. Or a General is a cheating on his wife. Tell the disloyal people to cool it or El Presidente will tell all.

House arrest: A soft way of dealing with people. Killing a famous artist or religious leader could really hurt the regime. So, the trouble maker is under house arrest. No harm to the person, but they are in the penalty box and not able to cause any more problems.


Riot Police - This is one step below full blown martial law. The government sends out the police in riot gear and crack some skulls. This will help calm the population down . Martial Law is shoot to kill. Riot Police don't kill, they beat people senseless.


Torture: Police arrest suspects and make them talk. They gather important information like where the rebels are. Or what citizens have been saying unpatriotic things.


Purge the military: The secret police terrorize the army and gets rid of people who are not loyal.


Purge the government: Like the army, there could be people in the party or government bureaucracy that needs to be delt with.


Food taster - Increases the president's chance of survival.

Body Double - A shell game for would be assassin. By giving multiple targets, they don't know who the real Presidente is.

Body Guards - Presently El President just rides alone in his limo. In a real world situation, that is suicide. Instead, El President should have his own personal guard that is loyal to him. They should escort him everywhere.

Shell game - Here when El Presidente rides in his limo, there should be two more limo with him. That way a potential assassin will not know which limo to hit. So game wise, there will be three limo rolling whenever El Presidente goes someplace.

Arrange Accident: If some government official or faction leader complains to much, I might "arrange an accident" For example, a General takes a helicopter ride to tour of the island and oops, the helicopter runs out of gas.


Martyr: Here I have someone famous and popular killed and frame the opposition. For example, I hate the communist. The Bishop is popular island wide. I have the bishop killed and blame the communist. So all anger on the island is directed to the communist. Maybe the communist go into hiding. This is also good if the bishop is also my enemy. I manage to kill to birds with one stone.


Massacre - Here the army is authorized to use military force on civilians. When people riot, they are shot.


Death Squads: Loyal Patriotic elite soldiers totally dedicated to the regime ( true believers ) are licenced to kill and shot trouble makers on sight.


Public Execution: Publicly execute people who are not loyal to set an example to the rest of the population. This is similar to what Fidel did after he took power. Maybe combine this edict with show trials on TV. Public execution is different from a massacre because it only kills one or two people. A massacre randomly kills many people. If the island does not have TV, then the trouble makers are hanged by their necks from lamp posts.

Collective Punishment: Here the dictator says I would rather err on the side of killing an inocent man than to be cautious and let a potential trouble maker go free. So the trouble maker and anyone remotely associated with that individual is sent to a slave labor camp or executed. For example, maybe there is a small village that harbors rebels. Instead of trying to figure out who are the rebels in that village, just kill the whole village. Other villages will thing twice about harboring rebels.

Slave Labor Camps: Political prisoners are used as slaves. This increases production. For example, a slave factory.

Slave mines: Here slaves are used to mine. Free employees and no safety concerns.

Slave Farms: Free employees that are worked day and night.

Chemical attack: Authorize the use of chemical weapons in area that might have rebels. If there is collateral damage, so be it. But if the rebels are there, they are instantly killed. Mabye several bomber planes can fly over a suspected area and carpet bomb an area with chemicals.

Hire merceneries: Gaddafi hired mercenaries out of pocket when it seemed that the army was not willing to do their job and fire on their own people. If the dictator has the extra cash on hand, having a "Hire merceneries" option can be a good way to add muscle to the armed forces.

Have several secret police forces: Like Saddam Hussein did. Saddam had 5 secret police forces. You have several internal security forces that not only spy on the population, but spy on each other. This increases the chances that people are properly terrorized.


The rest are ideas to increase control over people's lives in a totalitarian dictatorship.


Cult of personality: The dictator tries to foster an image of the flawless leader. Of course it is important that the leader is competent and has ont done any mass killings.


Puppet Churches: The clergy in these churches use the bible to instill loyalty in religious people to the government.


Government run trade unions: Organize labor and make sure that they instill loyalty to the government.


One party elections: These are shame elections. These are the elections that the Communist bloc use to hold. Stupid people might think that they are practicing democracy.


Neighborhood Watch: Every city block has political officers ( professional stool pigeons ) who openly spy on neighbors and report people to the government.


Plant seeds of mistrust: In this edict, agents infiltrate a targeted group and undermine them by planting seeds of mistrust. If caught, the government looks bad. However, if successful, the group is weakened. That way they are less effective in opposing the government because the faction is at each other's throats.


Youth Program: Think Hitler Youth. Young people are told to turn in their parents and neighbors if they see people who are not loyal to the regime. Also, they can fight like soldiers.


Cultural organizations: this is yet another arm of control. The government creates government run civic organizations that channel people's energies into social events the government controls. This insures people are keeped busy and distracted.


Surveillance cameras - Increases control like wiretaping


Checkpoints - Another form of control like wiretaping.


Internal Passports - This increases the chance of catching foreign spies


Scapegoat ideology - The government blames a group of people for the ills of the regime. It could be a minority group, immigrants, a religious group, labor, big business etc . . . This will help the population vent their rage against this group. For a while the masses are distracted from the truth.


Pacification campaign. This idea is linked to the Scapegoat ideology above. Once the population anger reaches a fever pitch, the government conducts a mass round up of the "bad people" and either send them to labor camps ( labor camps if the island has them ) or the "bad guys" dig their own graves and are executed.

Mercenary army: If I got the cash, I'd like the ability to hire mercenaries to supplement my regular forces.


I would like to see other forms of government.

Theocracy

Monarcy

Minority Rule ( like white South Africa )

Junta ( Instead of one man rule, it is rule by a group of men )

I like where your going with this.

I have to admit that I mostly play as straight laced liberal capitalist but would like the game to be calibrated so as to allow a greater diversity of style in term of governance.

(11-11-2010 08:40 PM)Sakyamuni Wrote:  I like where your going with this.

I have to admit that I mostly play as straight laced liberal capitalist but would like the game to be calibrated so as to allow a greater diversity of style in term of governance.

These are great ideas ^_^

+1

I like this. More methods to control the island is always good.

These are are all good ideas (I've always wanted to be able to run a military junta succesfully without having to hybridize it into Singapore-on-steroids for the sake of the economy), but a few are already covered by existing edicts, namely:
President for Life (Martial Law)
Gifts from the President (Bribe Faction Leaders)
Ignore Election Result (you can just declare Martial Law if the results look unfavourable, AFAIK)
Arrange Accident (already completely possible with the in-game super-elimination edict given by the Secret Police) Death Squads (don't see anything they'd do that Secret Police and Soldiers don't already)
Cult of Personality (pretty much the entire point the Megalomania edicts, especially Hola Presidente!, Political Education and Ideology Book, not to mention the numerous Loyalist and Respect boosting buildings and building options)
Youth Programs (you can already turn the kids into Loyalists or make them less courageous) and...
Cultural Organizations (Political Education).

I'd, personally, like to see a major overhaul of the combat system in Tropico 4. The Rebels currently just bunch up together like a bunch of morons waiting for soldiers to line up one by one and take little potshots before fleeing or the rebels are all wiped out. I'd like to be able to click on a Guard Post or Army Base and set a rally point for all of it's employees/residents to group at, and when I set them to rally at a Garage, they all get trucked-up (more military vehicles wouldn't go amiss, for that matter, or vehicles that can carry multiple people) and the next set rally point has them driving over and offloading themselves onto that location. Right clicking on non-garage buildings would set that building to be "defended" by the troops, having them patrol closely around it and place highest targeting priority against any rebels attempting to attack it. Along with that, I'd like to see a more general rally point accesible from a small button near the minimap, that functions as a rally point for any and all military units.

Praetyre

I agree. The game covers some of the stuff I am talking about. But, it does not feel the same. When I play a dictator, the game does not feel any different from being a nice guy. Here are some answers to your input.

President for Life vs. Martial Law - Dictators from the past have declared themselves President for Life without imposing Martial Law. I see Prez for Life as a Meglomaniac edict that the intellectuals dislike. And that does not kill your economy.

Gifts from the President vs. Bribe Faction Leaders - I want to be able to bribe anyone like palace guards, generals not just faction leaders. With gifts from the Prez, I don't need a bank. I should be able to have an inventory of stuff that I can give away.

Ignore Election Result - In a resent game I played, I thought that I had it in the bag. Then surprise! I lost the election. At that point, after I lose an election, I want the option. Continue playing.

Death Squads - I see this group working on auto pilot.

Cult of Personality - I don't get the same feel as what I saw China did with Mao Tse Tung. Mao created a cult of personality where people were brainwashed. I don't get that same feeling with Tropico.

Youth Programs - I think Hitler Youth or Cuba's Pioneers. The Cuban Pioneers know how to shoot an AK-47. They can strip down and put together an AK blinfoulded. During World War II, Hitler Youth fought along side regular army troops. In the battle of Normandy, around the town of Caen, Hitler Youth troops gave British troop a fight to the finish. Basically what I am saying is that Youth Programs create combat ready, loyal youth that are more loyal to the regime than there own parents.

Cultural Organizations - I see these organization as serving multiple purposes. But the main one is that it keeps people busy. In Cuba for example, your free time is not your own. You are expected to be someplace at a certain time. This keeps people minds distracted. And they can't be some place plotting against the government.

Edit: Oops, sorry guys, wrong topic

Brilliant! I remember reading the box: "Do you want to be the hero of your people, or a tyrant? Rule with an iron fist or a kind velvet glove? Or, an iron fist IN a velvet glove?"

The game provides a lot of ways to be nice, and not too many ways to be evil. They need to provide equal means of doing so.

Yes, the option to be evil needs to be as doable as being good, and as such, I wholeheartedly agree with most every idea except the slavery and genocidal aspects (he latter has always always disgusted me and would make Tropico a M-rared game). Some of your suggestions (e.g. death squads and secret police) are already present, but I certainly can see a difference between Presidente for Life and Martial Law.

I also reccomend these amendments to your ideas to make it more doable.

• Things like martyrdom and one-party sham elections should be edicts. Click a faction to martyr and a faction to blame, and the game will carry it out.
• House arrest and that sort of thing should be doable like the Declare Heretic or Arrest buttons. House arrest should be a bit costlier and be shorter than true imprisonment.
• Having the USSR invade you is part of the challenge and balancing of the game. You can't just remove that. To counteract the USSR invading you for the sake of shacks, I propose that the Nuclear Program keep the island free of invasion no matter what the economy is! To compensate, it'll need sixty units of electricity and cost a bit more to maintain, and will always need the respect of the Militarist faction. This will keep the superpowers off your back while still providing a challenge.
• Another way to combat the USSR's invasions is by forming an alliance. Since you're evil, you can pretend to be nice and get an Alliance with the country that's easiest to get, and then start breaking it immediately. Since you're allied, you can't get invaded, but you'll lose the rent when you don't praise the ally.
• Martyrdom should also be doable on rebels. The effect would be that people would become far less inclined to become rebels because people will see them as coldhearted (with the cost of the existing rebels attacking as soon as they become framed and they start to attack more). As a bonus, Betty Boom goes all conspiracy about an inside job!
• Negating elections should have drastic consequences, like hatred from the Intellectuals, rebel increases, liberty decreases, USA relationship decline, ect. ect. . I agree it should be done, but all things should have a trade-off.

Besides, what if you're like me? What if you're the kind of Presidente who uses the evil for good means (at least to Presidente!). For example, martyr a religious member and blame those stupid Environmentalists so that I can advance the economy.
I also like to build a HUGE ARMY simply because I can. One rebel versus thirty soldiers? Ha ha; it never gets old! Cower before me!!

There needs to be the potential evil abilities should be used alongside the good. What if I want social security AND one-party elections? Or, purge the government AND get elected in pure and honest means. I want to use both good and evil to my advantage, because I am PRESIDENTE and I want it!

One thing, though: no scenarios where you are forced to be evil, please. I would love scenarios where you CAN win by being evil, but there should also be a means for winning by doing good! For the strange men with abstract care and sympathy for a bunch of pieces of code and pictures (me), there needs to be a good way out as well, a good way to win.

I have always felt sympathy for the Tropicans, even though they are fictional, and I wouldn't want to hurt them that much unless they're those pesky Environmentalists that block my mines. I couldn't enjoy a scenario that wants me to kill a number of people in order to win, so the player should ALWAYS be given the choice of good and evil, or the option to use good AND evil.

Nonetheless, I totally agree with most everything you wrote here, and I would love to see all of these options handed to me as Presidente. Just keep the thing T-rated, because M-rated games are against my religion, and I wouldn't be able to buy my favorite computer game of all time.

As for the Gun Control Edict, that could easily be placed in the game without any new coding.

EDICT: Gun Control

COST: 8000, plus 100 yearly

DESCRIPTION: "Nothing is worse to a tyrannical Presidente than an armed populace that questions his rule. When a loyal military and a ton of Loyalist idiots aren't enough, bring in the big guns! ...-and by bring in the big guns, I mean TAKE THEM!"

EFFECTS:
• Only soldiers, police, and Presidente have guns.
• Decreases the chance for protests, eco-protests, and uprisings. Increases the chance of rebel attacks.
• +10 Communist respect
• +10 Intellectual respect
• Drastic liberty decrease
• -40 Militarists respect
• Soldiers are more effective against rebels.
• Populace becomes weaker and less courageous.
• You can not build a Weapons Factory when this is in effect, and any existing Weapons Factories are shut down, like Pubs in Prohibition.
  

Tourist kidnappings if rebels are a problem would be cool

Single Party elections can be very democratic, take the early soviet union before factions in the Bolshevik Party were banned, there was the Left, the Group of Democratic Centralism, and the Right. Internal Democracy.

Cultural Organizations - I dont view this is a outright evil dictator like idea, it may be slightly authoritarian but its hardly overwhelming.

yha we need a dictator game lol

i say we get to nuke someone!

(23-01-2011 06:34 PM)DuvalEaton Wrote:  i say we get to nuke someone!

I think you are obsessed by that.

(23-01-2011 06:34 PM)DuvalEaton Wrote:  i say we get to nuke someone!

That would be so cool to nuke someone.

What's the point of a nuclear program if you can't nuke anyone. Be like North Korea. I'm pretty sure he is close to an evil despot. I should add that if you're an evil despot, you should be able to send in the military and steal your vegtable baskets and poisen the water supplies with a substance that makes them all tell you all of the deepest secrets. For example, the fat american tourists' deepests secrets are "I want a hamburger!"

Bump for lots of discussion.

---

(Got thread moved to T4 board.)

apartheid- people wouldn't be divided by race but by nationality -when you issue this edict you can make some jobs and attractions/services aviable only to Tropico born people.

-20 intellectual respect
+45 nationalist respect

You will get less immigrants and it will be more likely that foreigners will leave the country.

(03-01-2011 06:57 PM)TurtleShroom Wrote:  As for the Gun Control Edict, that could easily be placed in the game without any new coding.

EDICT: Gun Control

COST: 8000, plus 100 yearly

DESCRIPTION: "Nothing is worse to a tyrannical Presidente than an armed populace that questions his rule. When a loyal military and a ton of Loyalist idiots aren't enough, bring in the big guns! ...-and by bring in the big guns, I mean TAKE THEM!"

EFFECTS:
• Only soldiers, police, and Presidente have guns.
• Decreases the chance for protests, eco-protests, and uprisings. Increases the chance of rebel attacks.
• +10 Communist respect
• +10 Intellectual respect
• Drastic liberty decrease
• -40 Militarists respect
• Soldiers are more effective against rebels.
• Populace becomes weaker and less courageous.
• You can not build a Weapons Factory when this is in effect, and any existing Weapons Factories are shut down, like Pubs in Prohibition.
  

OMFG, GUNS ARE NOT HATED BY COMMUNISTS!

General Fear Wrote:Blackmail: The president gets dirt on a faction leader or General in order to keep them in line. For example, maybe a Priest has a gambling problem. Or a General is a cheating on his wife. Tell the disloyal people to cool it or El Presidente will tell all.

I love this idea, simply because I always catch my Priests (& even Bishops!) spending faaaar too much time at the Cabaret. This would make them sing the praises of El President lest I expose them as heathens to their flock!

TurtleShroom Wrote:Yes, the option to be evil needs to be as doable as being good, and as such, I wholeheartedly agree with most every idea except the slavery and genocidal aspects (he latter has always always disgusted me and would make Tropico a M-rared game).

+1. While I love a bunch of these ideas and agree completely that Tropico doesn't really allow you to play and win as a Dictator (...you're inevitably pushed to give-in to the demands of the people to develop and win - hence Liberal, Democratic, Capitalist), I think some of these aspects push it a little too far.

Given that you can already "take out" some of your more problematic citizens, going around massacring swathes of the population would be a bit much, not to mention it would force Kalypso/Haemimont to do some legal backflips and bump up the rating to make it even remotely palatable for the shelves.

So the rating is rated M, 1% of people wont buy it.

(15-03-2011 11:50 AM)Lenin Cat Wrote:  So the rating is ... M, 1% of people won't buy it.

On which regional\national market do you base that statement?

In the US market, that rating could get one of the religious "family values" organizations to take a closer look at all of Kalypso's products. That could lead to any number of negative effects on the specific games and game marketing in general. Read "TurtleShroom's" posts about having his grandparents' approval to play T3.

You scoff that such publicity would lead to increased sales -- the "banned book" phenomenon. I opine that Kalypso does not make "niche" money, but rather mass sales money -- or I would not see their products in Target stores. This is not an economic climate in which you look for trouble for your product just to satisfy a vocal minority of users.

---

corrected <<TurtleShroom>>

(15-03-2011 02:21 PM)CoconutKid Wrote:  

(15-03-2011 11:50 AM)Lenin Cat Wrote:  So the rating is ... M, 1% of people won't buy it.

On which regional\national market do you base that statement?

In the US market, that rating could get one of the religious "family values" organizations to take a closer look at all of Kalypso's products. That could lead to any number of negative effects on the specific games and game marketing in general. Read "TurtleShroom's" posts about having his grandparents' approval to play T3.

You scoff that such publicity would lead to increased sales -- the "banned book" phenomenon. I opine that Kalypso does not make "niche" money, but rather mass sales money -- or I would not see their products in Target stores. This is not an economic climate in which you look for trouble for your product just to satisfy a vocal minority of users.

---

corrected <<TurtleShroom>>

I only know one person who plays this game that is religious, that is TurtleShroom.

(16-03-2011 03:45 PM)Lenin Cat Wrote:  

(15-03-2011 02:21 PM)CoconutKid Wrote:  

(15-03-2011 11:50 AM)Lenin Cat Wrote:  So the rating is ... M, 1% of people won't buy it.

On which regional\national market do you base that statement?

In the US market, that rating could get one of the religious "family values" organizations to take a closer look at all of Kalypso's products. That could lead to any number of negative effects on the specific games and game marketing in general. Read "TurtleShroom's" posts about having his grandparents' approval to play T3.

You scoff that such publicity would lead to increased sales -- the "banned book" phenomenon. I opine that Kalypso does not make "niche" money, but rather mass sales money -- or I would not see their products in Target stores. This is not an economic climate in which you look for trouble for your product just to satisfy a vocal minority of users.

---

corrected <<TurtleShroom>>

I only know one person who plays this game that is religious, that is TurtleShroom.

And you don't think that conclusion is by itself rather flawed considering that a) you most likely don't know if the others on this forum are religious and b) the people who write on the forums do not represent the majority of the Tropico players?

Religion aside, it is not only a question of family values but it is a question of ethics to include options as genocide (which on paper seems too much like the Holocaust). There is a fine line depicting reality and describing reality. As much as I agree with the rest of the posters that there should be an evil option to win (or rather, having options that are not so blatantly biased towards a Western neo-liberalist system as the best political option), tongue in cheek or not, some people will take offense by adding too much reality to the game - and by reality I don't mean economy layers. It will be hard to maintain that friendly atmosphere if the game becomes too realistic, and it will also push the target audience towards something else. I like the game as it is mostly, I would just like to see other possibilities to win than going neo-liberal.

(17-03-2011 07:29 PM)LeaT Wrote:  

(16-03-2011 03:45 PM)Lenin Cat Wrote:  

(15-03-2011 02:21 PM)CoconutKid Wrote:  

(15-03-2011 11:50 AM)Lenin Cat Wrote:  So the rating is ... M, 1% of people won't buy it.

On which regional\national market do you base that statement?

In the US market, that rating could get one of the religious "family values" organizations to take a closer look at all of Kalypso's products. That could lead to any number of negative effects on the specific games and game marketing in general. Read "TurtleShroom's" posts about having his grandparents' approval to play T3.

You scoff that such publicity would lead to increased sales -- the "banned book" phenomenon. I opine that Kalypso does not make "niche" money, but rather mass sales money -- or I would not see their products in Target stores. This is not an economic climate in which you look for trouble for your product just to satisfy a vocal minority of users.

---

corrected <<TurtleShroom>>

I only know one person who plays this game that is religious, that is TurtleShroom.

And you don't think that conclusion is by itself rather flawed considering that a) you most likely don't know if the others on this forum are religious and b) the people who write on the forums do not represent the majority of the Tropico players?

Religion aside, it is not only a question of family values but it is a question of ethics to include options as genocide (which on paper seems too much like the Holocaust). There is a fine line depicting reality and describing reality. As much as I agree with the rest of the posters that there should be an evil option to win (or rather, having options that are not so blatantly biased towards a Western neo-liberalist system as the best political option), tongue in cheek or not, some people will take offense by adding too much reality to the game - and by reality I don't mean economy layers. It will be hard to maintain that friendly atmosphere if the game becomes too realistic, and it will also push the target audience towards something else. I like the game as it is mostly, I would just like to see other possibilities to win than going neo-liberal.

Neoliberalism is an economic philosophy at it's core.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neoliberali...c_approach

Considering the massive government involvement in the economic functioning in Tropico, I don't think this is what you meant.

I think what you really mean is Social & Liberal Democracy, where Leaders are voted in and the government provided subsidized social services to its citizens.

(16-03-2011 03:45 PM)Lenin Cat Wrote:  

(15-03-2011 02:21 PM)CoconutKid Wrote:  

(15-03-2011 11:50 AM)Lenin Cat Wrote:  So the rating is ... M, 1% of people won't buy it.

On which regional\national market do you base that statement?

In the US market, that rating could get one of the religious "family values" organizations to take a closer look at all of Kalypso's products. That could lead to any number of negative effects on the specific games and game marketing in general. Read "TurtleShroom's" posts about having his grandparents' approval to play T3.

You scoff that such publicity would lead to increased sales -- the "banned book" phenomenon. I opine that Kalypso does not make "niche" money, but rather mass sales money -- or I would not see their products in Target stores. This is not an economic climate in which you look for trouble for your product just to satisfy a vocal minority of users.

---

corrected <<TurtleShroom>>

I only know one person who plays this game that is religious, that is TurtleShroom.

What are you trying to say here?

(17-03-2011 08:02 PM)Dr. Archibald Wrote:  

(17-03-2011 07:29 PM)LeaT Wrote:  

(16-03-2011 03:45 PM)Lenin Cat Wrote:  

(15-03-2011 02:21 PM)CoconutKid Wrote:  

(15-03-2011 11:50 AM)Lenin Cat Wrote:  So the rating is ... M, 1% of people won't buy it.

On which regional\national market do you base that statement?

In the US market, that rating could get one of the religious "family values" organizations to take a closer look at all of Kalypso's products. That could lead to any number of negative effects on the specific games and game marketing in general. Read "TurtleShroom's" posts about having his grandparents' approval to play T3.

You scoff that such publicity would lead to increased sales -- the "banned book" phenomenon. I opine that Kalypso does not make "niche" money, but rather mass sales money -- or I would not see their products in Target stores. This is not an economic climate in which you look for trouble for your product just to satisfy a vocal minority of users.

---

corrected <<TurtleShroom>>

I only know one person who plays this game that is religious, that is TurtleShroom.

And you don't think that conclusion is by itself rather flawed considering that a) you most likely don't know if the others on this forum are religious and b) the people who write on the forums do not represent the majority of the Tropico players?

Religion aside, it is not only a question of family values but it is a question of ethics to include options as genocide (which on paper seems too much like the Holocaust). There is a fine line depicting reality and describing reality. As much as I agree with the rest of the posters that there should be an evil option to win (or rather, having options that are not so blatantly biased towards a Western neo-liberalist system as the best political option), tongue in cheek or not, some people will take offense by adding too much reality to the game - and by reality I don't mean economy layers. It will be hard to maintain that friendly atmosphere if the game becomes too realistic, and it will also push the target audience towards something else. I like the game as it is mostly, I would just like to see other possibilities to win than going neo-liberal.

Neoliberalism is an economic philosophy at it's core.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neoliberali...c_approach

Considering the massive government involvement in the economic functioning in Tropico, I don't think this is what you meant.

I think what you really mean is Social & Liberal Democracy, where Leaders are voted in and the government provided subsidized social services to its citizens.

I mean exactly what I meant - neo-liberalism is much more than just economics, at least when you get into the realm of social sciences where I have my background (we never speak of neo-liberalism as a stand-alone economic system - because it's so intertwined with the rest of a government's politics). A majority, if not all, Western countries adhere to neo-liberalism. Along with neo-liberalism you almost automatically get social liberalism (to a degree, mind you - the opposite being extreme political correctness), and Tropico already emphasizes this as well. I'm actually quite surprised the capitalists in Tropico find the social security edict as something positive, but that's an aside.

We could go into more detail about exactly what defines democracy (I'm not sure I find the idea of el presidente democractic, especially considering you only have one runner-up whenever there is an election), and truthfully, you can win the game just fine without having a democratic system. You cannot however, win the game without going neo-liberal (i.e. capitalist) to some degree, unless you would plan living off the subsidies from the US and USSR which becomes impossible when the upkeep costs become too high.

(17-03-2011 07:29 PM)LeaT Wrote:  ... Religion aside, it is not only a question of family values but it is a question of ethics to include options as genocide (which on paper seems too much like the Holocaust*). There is a fine line depicting reality and describing reality.

As much as I agree with the rest of the posters that there should be an evil option to win (or rather, having options that are not so blatantly biased towards a Western neo-liberalist system as the best political option), tongue in cheek or not, some people will take offense by adding too much reality to the game - and by reality I don't mean economy layers. It will be hard to maintain that friendly atmosphere if the game becomes too realistic, and it will also push the target audience towards something else. I like the game as it is mostly, I would just like to see other possibilities to win than going neo-liberal.

* Is not the Holocaust just a landmark which has been individually named in the long history of genocides? It certainly falls in the definition of genocide. Well, the current definition; the concept of defining the destruction of a whole people is very contentious. If you look carefully at the history of the development of T3, you will discover that an early feature was to have been a tribe of aboriginals who would have a homeland (reservation) or area of the island and El Presidente would have the choice of destroying them, integrating them or isolating them. The concept was not well received by some fans.

Perhaps it is merely a matter of taste or semantics or subtlety (not "tongue-in-cheek") -- but I don't think there is any lack of EVIL options available in the game. I think it is a matter of perceptions. The perception that there is only one way to win the game -- if only someone would post a comprehensive "walk-through." The perception that each player's concept of EVIL has to be labeled, flagged, identified just according to his\her mentality. I opine that the developers and publishers have included every reasonable EVIL option which is significant to gameplay and which will NOT adversely the ratings -- which are a significant marketing factor.

I think General Fear's postulate in the original post is fallacious and his examples involve redundancy or micro-management not significant to gameplay.

EVIL does not mean playing Vlad the Impaler, Idi Amin 'Butcher of Uganda' , or even "Papa Doc" of Haiti -- if that's what you wish, go talk to the folks at "Grand Theft Auto." Alternatively, turn off the computer and go catch flies and pull their wings off. Really -- can't you see the ways you already have to oppress and trick and control the people? Do you have to have them lined up on a special menu?

(17-03-2011 07:29 PM)LeaT Wrote:  

(16-03-2011 03:45 PM)Lenin Cat Wrote:  

(15-03-2011 02:21 PM)CoconutKid Wrote:  

(15-03-2011 11:50 AM)Lenin Cat Wrote:  So the rating is ... M, 1% of people won't buy it.

On which regional\national market do you base that statement?

In the US market, that rating could get one of the religious "family values" organizations to take a closer look at all of Kalypso's products. That could lead to any number of negative effects on the specific games and game marketing in general. Read "TurtleShroom's" posts about having his grandparents' approval to play T3.

You scoff that such publicity would lead to increased sales -- the "banned book" phenomenon. I opine that Kalypso does not make "niche" money, but rather mass sales money -- or I would not see their products in Target stores. This is not an economic climate in which you look for trouble for your product just to satisfy a vocal minority of users.

---

corrected <<TurtleShroom>>

I only know one person who plays this game that is religious, that is TurtleShroom.

And you don't think that conclusion is by itself rather flawed considering that a) you most likely don't know if the others on this forum are religious and b) the people who write on the forums do not represent the majority of the Tropico players?

Religion aside, it is not only a question of family values but it is a question of ethics to include options as genocide (which on paper seems too much like the Holocaust). There is a fine line depicting reality and describing reality. As much as I agree with the rest of the posters that there should be an evil option to win (or rather, having options that are not so blatantly biased towards a Western neo-liberalist system as the best political option), tongue in cheek or not, some people will take offense by adding too much reality to the game - and by reality I don't mean economy layers. It will be hard to maintain that friendly atmosphere if the game becomes too realistic, and it will also push the target audience towards something else. I like the game as it is mostly, I would just like to see other possibilities to win than going neo-liberal.

Its a FREAKING GAME! A GAME! I would love it if I could commit genocide.

(18-03-2011 04:43 PM)Lenin Cat Wrote:  Its a FREAKING GAME! A GAME! I would love it if I could commit genocide.

Psychiatrists have interesting things to say about people who think that way.