I was wondering if Tropico 3 is going to be specifically oriented towards Cuban culture? Or will there be a broader focus?

I'd love to see aspects of Jamaican, Haitian, Dominican, Sint Maarten, etc. cultures. Possibly also some Mexican, Central and South American influences, etc. but on the flipside of that, I would really hate to see culture entirely diluted into a generic, unauthentic, "latin" theme.

The original Tropico allowed us to play as leaders of numerous diverse countries, which was great, and it was a bit of a shame that there was no real distinction present in the game, other than "stats".

One idea that appeals to me (and I can hope that it'll appeal to you, too) is that the Tropico island itself could have it's own indigenous culture--whether just a general "latin" theme, or maybe something a little more distinct--but then have migrants to the island bring in aspects of their culture. Jamaican migrants could bring in Rastafarianism and Reggae (possibly with a chance of generating a peace movement), Ska, Dub, etc. while Sint Maarten arrivals could bring aspects of French and Dutch culture, as well as excellent chefs.
Haitians could bring Compas, and ofcourse could also bring Hoodoo (it's steriotypical, but well-established in popular culture, and Carribean life, and would seem a bit out of place if ignored.).

Something that would be extremely interesting and fun, in my opinion, would be to see the background music of the game slowly alter as our populations shifted, with new song titles replacing older indiginous ones, in-game.

Great music, ofcourse, is a major desire for the game. That was one of the absolute best things about the original Tropico, and if it can be held to the same standard of quality, but also broadened a bit, and even made to be a more dynamic part of the game, that would be awesome.

(As a side-note: It would be wonderful if the music didn't just shift due to changing populations, but also due to the advance of time. Also, have you considered adding radio stations? Being able to add them-and giving "El Presidente" control over their content-would be a great feature to have. Absolutely player-friendly.)

Even the spoken language of the people might shift a bit over time, becoming a sort of Patois. Nothing difficult for us to understand, but enough to add flavour to the background. That might be a bit involved, though, but it would be fun.

As far as food is concerned, I'd like to see that be a part of the game.

It'd be great to have some "marketplace politics" going on, up to and including market "turf-wars", which might cause headaches for our food distribution. Marketplaces can be vitally important to an island's economy and society, in real life. They're very often run by women, also, which would give a nice opportunity to balance some female power into the game.

Ethnic restaurants/bars/etc. could be opened by migrants, and they could contain actual menues that list authentic recipes.

I'd love to see Jerk Chicken being grilled by the side of the road, a Puerto Rican roast pig emporium, or a Cevicheria, even the occasional "ex-pat" bar run by Europeans or Americans far from home, who have either gone native, or just aren't welcome anymore in their own country. Some of these "ex-pats" might be spies. For that matter, all of them might be a political concern for El Presidente.

Migrants might bring new crops/industries/skills/wealth (licit, or otherwise) for us to play around with, as well as their own viewpoints on the Government. They might also bring their own problems, such as gang warfare, guns, drugs, political rivalries, etc. Not to mention ethnicity-based hate crimes, which might need to be handled by anything ranging from greater police funding, to diplomatic mediation, to infiltration of racism-based organizations.

Religion-and religious conflict-could also be a really interesting challenge for us. Since Catholicism is likely to be a major religion in the game (with Papal visitation being an event in the original game), the relation between Catholicism and Voodou could be explored. Santeria and Bahai could also be added into the mix.

Muslims, various forms of Christian, Jewish, and various "cult" religions could also be represented, adding their own cultures to the island.

Carnival could be a major cultural event, not only increasing the happiness of the people, but also bringing in tourists.

Also, there's the possibility of neighborhoods gradually developing their own "personality" over a longer period of time, provided that the neighborhood(s) in question don't change much.

(As another side-note: In the original game, there didn't seem to be a whole lot of benefit to building different types of residential homes. It would be really nice if there could be some cultural interest in doing so--so that very poor neighborhoods might develope "personality" faster than more comfortable ones, with the trade-off being that those neighborhoods would be much greater sources of problems.)

Some possible benefits of neighborhood personality might include: greater artistic talent in the children born there (possibly increasing tourism, but also occasionally providing free artwork of excellent quality), more determination to "get out" and get a better job/home/life (translating to harder workers), tougher soldiers (they've been fighting on the streets since they could walk), better quality chefs (they really know how to cook over there), a free church/soup kitchen/park (everybody on the block chipped in to build it), an annual parade/festival/block party (with the same benefits as Carnival, but only confined to one smallish area), or especially loyal citizens (Everybody supports El Presidente around here--if you don't, then get out!).

Ofcourse, there could be detrimental "personalities" too, such as a given neighborhood being a rebel support-center, center of drug-traffic, or a breeding-ground for rats, insects, or disease. A bad enough neighborhood might even be able to keep your police from going in there without a ton of backup.

Indigenous culture could also be a source of interest. I've heard rumors that there may be Native Indian attacks on tourists and the like. There's a lot more that could be done with that subject, though. Ruins ofcourse are obvious, and were present in the original game, but having a chance (and I don't think it should be easy, but I believe it should atleast be possible) to develope a diplomatic relationship with Natives, could be very beneficial as well. Maybe they know of pharmaceuticals that could be very valuable to the 1st world? (Could be cures for diseases, or could be powerful hallucinogenics.). Maybe they know the location of a lost gold mine that doesn't otherwise show up on the map or at game-creation? The people might also go to the local "medicine man" for medical assistance, reducing the strain on our hospitals.

They might be a factor in tourism. Allowing Western anthropologists into the country could help get the U.S. on your side, and even regular tourists could flock to witness aspects of Native culture.

Something else that might be very cool would be if there were an option for "El Presidente" himself to be a Native chieftain, and thus have access to their lore, and begin the game on friendly terms with them, while at the same time being on poorer terms with other factions, especially 1st world citizens (Racism is very unfortunate, but ignoring it, I think, would be a cop-out.).

Kind of on the same subject: It'd be fun to see some kind of "cargo cult" going on--maybe among the Natives, or maybe just on the fringes of society.

Legends and superstition could also come up in the game.
Certainly, it's reasonable to suppose that a 3rd world island country, in the 1950s, would be a ripe breeding-ground for superstitions, and those might have a real impact on the game.

For instance: If you disturb/destroy a Native burial ground, after being warned away from it, there could be supernatural, as well as regular Native repercussions. Building a road over it might doom that stretch of highway to having many more traffic accidents than normal. Putting a building over it might cause a haunting or a disease. And if you commit atrocities against the Natives-or another ethnicity, for that matter-your soldiers might get cursed, it might trigger an earthquake or a hurricane, whatever.

Not enough to turn the game into a fantasy, certainly, just little things here and there, but enough to add some mystery, and a little more respect for the Natives and other factions.

There also might occasionally be a zombie shuffling around the island. That isn't necessarily a supernatural event, since "zombification" can be induced by certain drugs/poisons, and brainwashing. The possibility of employing "zombie" labour is also a thought--you wouldn't have to pay them, ofcourse, so it could be very profitable, but if the U.S. found out, you'd probably be facing atleast a trade embargo, if not some kind of military intercession.

That doesn't mean that it has to be sanctioned by El Presidente-zombification might instead be a threat to a benevolent government (or it's public image, anyway), and need to be stamped out. The possibility could exist to go either way.

It would also be a way of adding something different to the "basic" illicit drug-trade that El Presidente may either secretly involve himself in, or combat (or both, for that matter).

Finally, while I understand that the game is oriented towards the Cold War era, I'd love to see some historical influences from past events.

Being able to discover the history of the island, from the culture of the original inhabitants through Colonization, the slave-trade, the pirate era (I know the idea of pirates has some bad connotations due to Tropico 2's failure, but pirates are still cool, and maybe something can be done to erase bad memories--also, the possibility of locating a sunken pirate ship, or treasure-map, could be a fun/profitable little event.) past revolutions-successful or otherwise-the role of the island in WW2, and even the former government, would all add a lot of thematic flavour.

These events could be unique (randomly generated) to each island, allowing you to piece them together throughout each game.

Hi,

This forum is relatively new, so there are not many people around. Hopefully, this will change in future.

Tropico 3 will try to cover the atmosphere of the whole Caribbean region, and not target a specific country.

Quote:One idea that appeals to me (and I can hope that it'll appeal to you, too) is that the Tropico island itself could have it's own indigenous culture

Unfortunately, there is no historical background of indigenous tribes living in the Caribbean region as was recently discussed at great length in another forum. However, we have managed to find a way to include such elements in an unobtrusive way to the player (or at least we hope so ).

Quote:Ofcourse, there could be detrimental "personalities" too, such as a given neighborhood being a rebel support-center, center of drug-traffic, or a breeding-ground for rats, insects, or disease. A bad enough neighborhood might even be able to keep your police from going in there without a ton of backup.

We have some cool ideas on this front. Wait an see.

The development of the game has entered a phase where some things are already settled but there is still a lot of room for ideas. I will regularly visit this forum to your ideas, comments and opinions.

I am very glad that you started this discussion. If more people join up it can become very interesting.

Cheers,
Lyubo

I'm not quite sure what you mean about there not being any history of indigenous tribes in the area?

I did a little research, and this is what I found.

Human remains dating as far back as 7000 years were found in Trinidad, which is in the northern Carribean. Remains have been found back to 3000 BCE in Cuba, itself, and the Arawak culture has it's origin in the Saladiod culture, which dates back to atleast 400 BCE.

At the time of colonization, there were four major indigenous groups in the Carribean:

The Taino, in the Greater Antilles and the Bahamas,

The Caribs and Galibi in the Windward Islands,

and the Ciboney in western Cuba.

While it's true the Spanish and other colonial powers drove these groups into near-extinction, they did exist, and the Taino and Caribs weren't completely wiped out, surviving even today.

A lot about their cultures--especially the Taino--is still known.

Many Puerto Ricans and Dominicans still identify themselves as Taino, or of Taino origin, and they exist politically as the 'Jatibonicu Taíno Tribal Nation of Boriken' in Puerto Rico (formed in 1970, which would reasonably fall well within the game's timeline.).

DNA tests also suggest that over 60% of Puerto Ricans have Taino ancestry.

In addition to the Taino, the Caribs still survive today, although their are only about 3,000 of them left, and no native speakers of the language survive.

The Ciboney are extinct as a people, but there are allegedly over 250 families in Florida that claim Ciboney ancestry.

The information you provide is very much in accord with what we mean to do. Hope you like it.

I do hope that other cultures are included, but I also hope T3 doesn't stray too far from hispanic caribbean cultures. That's partly what made the game very attractive.

ElHoneyBadger Wrote:I'm not quite sure what you mean about there not being any history of indigenous tribes in the area?
... While it's true the Spanish and other colonial powers drove these groups into near-extinction, they did exist, and the Taino and Caribs weren't completely wiped out, surviving even today. ...

Haemimont is well aware of the history.

If I may interpret what Lyubo was driving at, by 1950 there were no - none, zero - pockets of indigenous people living separate and apart on any Caribbean island. There were such peoples deep in the jungle on the mainland, but not on any island.

Yes, the colonial powers almost totally wiped out the indigenous people, and additionally imported African slaves whose culture submerged the residue of any indigenous culture.

Quote:Haitians could bring Compas, and of course could also bring Hoodoo (it's steriotypical, but well-established in popular culture, and Carribean life, and would seem a bit out of place if ignored.).

I think that is Voodoo, and the Haitians don't have a monopoly.

Vodou is a religion, while Hoodoo is the mystical/magical side of that, and was the foundation of 'Papa Doc''s psychological fear tactics, employed against the Haitian people.

Hoodoo's where you get things like zombis, "voodoo dolls", and curses.

Vodou and Hoodoo are often mistaken for one another, but they're separate entities.

As far as indigenous peoples living separate and apart on any Caribbean island, the Carib were granted a 3700 acre plot of land by the Crown on the island of (the commonwealth of) Dominica, in 1903, and have lived there ever since, having celebrated their 100th anniversary of having their own territory, in 2003, so that's one refutation to your argument.

ElHoneyBadger Wrote:... As far as indigenous peoples living separate and apart on any Caribbean island, the Carib were granted a 3700 acre plot of land by the Crown on the island of (the commonwealth of) Dominica, in 1903, and have lived there ever since, having celebrated their 100th anniversary of having their own territory, in 2003, so that's one refutation to your argument.

They were/are completely subdued, peaceable (unarmed) people living in a reservation (read ghetto) provided by the colonial power.

They were/are not an independent force capable rising up and attacking development outside side their "plot" nor of armed resistance to encroachment on their plot.

That was the original proposal of Haemimont. They thought of wild savages not yet conquered by the colonial power.

All of Tropico may not equal 3,700 acres.

ElHoneyBadger Wrote:Voodoo is a religion, while Hoodoo is the mystical/magical side of that, ... Vodou and Hoodoo are often mistaken for one another, but they're separate entities. ...

Score one "gotya" for you.

Voodoo is a religion and Hoodoo isn't. With the religious persecution and suppression of the Voodoo religion in America, hoodoo is what remains. Hoodoo is the "folk magic" of the common people in West Africa that has been passed from one generation to the next. Most of what could be said as "legitimate" Voodoo in books, Hollywood movies and popular culture, is actually the magicobotanical practice of Hoodoo.

Hoodoo is not a religion. It is spiritual and magical in nature, but it does not have an established theology, clergy, laity, or order of liturgical services. Hoodoo shows obvious links to the practices and beliefs of all African folk magic-religious culture.

Voodoo is an established religion with its ancient roots in Egypt, East Africa, ancient Ionia and Afro-Rome. Now, its current roots are in the West African region now known as Benin, Togo, Burkina Faso. It is practiced all throughout West Africa; particularly, among members of the Fon, Ewe and other West African groups. In Haiti and the Caribbean it is practiced in a form that has been greatly modified by contact with the Catholic church.

http://paranormalstories.blogspot.com/20...oodoo.html

Personally, I find the difference little but an academically oriented definition -- somewhat tortured at that. It's not hard to Christian sects that have a hard time meeting the test of: established theology, clergy, laity, and order of liturgical services.

"They were/are completely subdued, peaceable (unarmed) people living in a reservation (read ghetto) provided by the colonial power.

They were/are not an independent force capable rising up and attacking development outside side their "plot" nor of armed resistance to encroachment on their plot."

That's far more of an opinion based on circumstantial evidence, than it is a fact. Like anywhere else, guns are always available if the money for them is there, people will defend themselves against attackers and encroachers, and if a good enough opportunity presents itself, oppressed people are ofcourse more likely to atleast support a rebellion against their oppressors, if not form the core of one.

The idea of a society with as strong a warrior tradition as the Carib, being neutered into complete submission in just a few centuries is at best naive, at worst, insulting. The Carib of St. Vincent and Dominica delayed European settlement of those islands, maintaining autonomous status well into the 19th century, so by the time of the game, it hadn't even been that long since they were entirely independent and in constant military opposition to the colonial powers present. Not nearly enough time to forget, or forgive.

So conquered, yes, but hardly defeated. Weakened, yes, but not at all harmless.

For that matter, having a large, semi-autonomous reservation of Natives on your island would, by itself, be an interesting political challenge, which could become much more than just militarily interesting.

Provide one example, of a Caribbean uprising by Amerinds... during the mid-20th Century.

I will, when you provide one example of a Carribean island Lou Bega was in charge of.

It's not necessary to provide a specific historical example. It's a question of potential, not historical fact, unless you honestly believe that Tropico is (or Tropico 3 will be) entirely based on documented historical fact?

Amerinds *were* involved in "island uprisings" in the mid-20th century. A notable example is Alcatraz Island, which was occupied in 1969 by the Sioux.

Considering that in Tropico 1, one of the goals is to remain in power longer than Queen Elizabeth 1 of Britain, I'd say that geographical accuracy is another area that can be superceded by what's fun.

The closest thing to an "Amerind uprising" in the Carribean itself is probably the Puerto Rican 'Jayuya Uprising' of 1950 (with approximately 61% of Puerto Ricans being descendants of the Taino). The town of Jayuya itself was named after a Taino tribal leader.

I'd suggest that's close enough for entertaining fiction.

I'm not saying that realism isn't important, but this is a game, after all, not a college course, and I'd rather have plenty of things to do-some based on fact, some based on creative speculation-than have the developers be stilted by history.

History should be a source for inspiration and thematic flavor, and a guideline that can be followed as faithfully as remains enjoyable.

It should not, in my opinion, be a handicap.

The key words are assimilated, verisimilitude, and AI.

The indigenous peoples of the Caribbean were assimilated into the modern world by the mid-twentieth century. However they were living, it was not in ignorance of the times. Haemimont's initial proposal on this topic was that the player would have the choice of military suppression or "integration" into the rest of Tropico. That implies assimilation from a primitive status unless you suppose Haemimont planned to get into apartheid and other racial issues.

Lou Bega being a newly installed dictator of a very small Caribbean island has more verisimilitude in the story line of the game than having a tribe of primitive natives living on a large, semi-autonomous reservation on such an island. Yes, some California tribes have small reservations of only a few acres, but they don't attack tourists -- they build casinos to attract them. How did SimCity handle this critical issue?

If the Tropican Rebels are not a sufficient level of political challenge for you, perhaps you really are looking for another kind of game. But in any case, semi-autonomous people (will they be the same kind of people units as citizens & tourists?) would require a somewhat sophisticated AI for interesting game play. The Rebels cause enough problems without very much AI at all -- they have no central organization / coordination worthy of actual recognition as a "side" in a civil war. Of course, your army has little C&C either. The point is, do you want Haemimont spending time on coding AI for Tropican Caribs or something more central to typical game play?

I never knew that Alcatraz counted as a Caribbean island nor that the Sioux were island dwellers.

[sigh] Those that desire to commit genocide on Amerindians... should play the ANNO series of games.

If Vudu is included then they have to include Santeria; a kind of vudu very popular in Cuba and practiced all across iberiamerica and Miami.

CoconutKid Wrote:I never knew that Alcatraz counted as a Caribbean island nor that the Sioux were island dwellers.

And I never said that they were. Is that not clear?

The point about Lou Bega is that that was clearly a fantastical element of the game with no historical basis in fact. Considering that David Loubega is half Sicilian and half Ugandan, and that he's had absolutely no political career and currently lives in Germany, I don't think there's much if any verisimilitude.

He was simply added as a *fun* element, aimed to capitalize on a popular musician. Nothing wrong with that, whatsoever (and the high quality music deserved such a nod, dubious though it may have been), but he's also not worth bringing up as any indicator of a direction the game should go in.

On the flipside of that, if the game is going to be more historically straight (which is fine with me, honestly), I also have no problem with the game tackling racial and other difficult issues.

I'd like them to be handled maturely and responsibly, ofcourse, but too many games turn their backs on those kinds of important issues and pretend they don't exist. Considering the extreme levels of violence, crime, and drug-use present in many games (and no, I don't have any problems with violence, etc, or a lack of those elements in the games I play, for that matter) it's off-putting that other realistic "mature" topics are so often ignored.

The game is, after all, about playing a dictator in a third-world country, set in a part of the world with a long history of oppression, slavery, drug-trafficing, violence, and genocide. Racism and elements reminiscent of Apartheid were and remain a part of the culture.

From what I've read, Haemimont Games, being based in Bulgaria, seems to be well aware of the darker sides of government, and the worst realities of conquest, so I'm hoping they'll bring some of that consciousness into the game.

To answer another of your questions: No, I don't think that having a single group of generic "rebels" is much of a challenge, or very interesting. I also don't think that to increase that interest requires me to "find another game".

Ofcourse, a strong AI is always nice, and would benefit more than just one or two areas of the game.

Having different political and cultural factions present in the game only makes the game more interesting. That doesn't mean that having indigenous peoples is the only or best solution, ofcourse. But there *are* solutions and areas of cultural interest that I believe would be worth the developers spending their time on.

If not Amerinds, then replace them with something else of hopefully similar or greater interest.

To state my position as plainly and simply as possible: There are certain desires and minimum expectations that I will have as a paying customer, and that I will continue to request and elaborate upon, as a fan of the game, because I believe that the best way to get what I want from a game company is to be vocal about it.

I'm not saying I'm right, but I believe that it's a lot more productive to put forth ideas, or to add to the ideas of others, than to just shoot them down without adding anything to the conversation.

i like the introduction of different religions. maybe you could have the option of making el presidente a member of an ethnic minority. only example i can think of right now is fujimora who was of japanese descent who ruled peru (not 100% on that so please correct me if i'm wrong). that could influence culture. so if el rpesidente was muslim you could make islam the state religion and give out benefits and stuff.
even native descended leader (e.g. evo morales of bolivia) could have different possibilities and outcomes.
ehb: you should come up with more ideas. i had fun reading them.

Of course, with a little modding potential, the islands don't have to be in the carib.

There's a whole bunch of tropical islands around the globe. Bali springs to mind.

slab2go Wrote:Of course, with a little modding potential, the islands don't have to be in the carib.

There's a whole bunch of tropical islands around the globe. Bali springs to mind.

Why TROPICAL?

With enough MODDING you can build a whole new game anywhere, can't you?

HOW ABOUT:

Tristan da Cunha (pronounced /ˈtrɪstən də ˈkuːnə/) is a remote volcanic group of islands in the south Atlantic Ocean. It is the most remote inhabited archipelago in the world, lying 2,816 kilometres (1,750 mi) from the nearest main land, South Africa, and 3,360 kilometres (2,090 mi) from South America. It is a dependency of the British overseas territory of Saint Helena, 2,430 kilometres (1,510 mi) to the north.

The territory consists of the main island, Tristan da Cunha area: 98 square kilometres (38 sq mi), as well as several uninhabited islands: Inaccessible and Nightingale Islands. Gough Island, area: 91 square kilometres (35 sq mi), situated 395 kilometres (245 mi) southeast of the main island, is also considered part of the territory.

So there is a challenge for the "modding" fanatics. Build a fantastic city there which attracts tourists by the aeroplane and boat load.

While Rome wasn't built in a single day, perhaps you could "mod" Grand Ages: Rome to build a Roman Colony on "Tristan da Cunha"?

Why not?

Well, one reason for 'why tropical?'--for me anyway--is that part of the pleasure of the game is to imagine yourself ruling over a paradise that you'd love to visit--a place where part of the fun is just being there, and then the rest of the fun, that the game provides, is being the most important person around.

So no, doesn't have to be tropical (and there should absolutely be modding tools to do whatever one wants, within the reasonable boundaries of the game), but I personally feel the geography should be-atleast start out-enjoyable.

...Until, ofcourse, we as players start dismantling the pristine landscape with mines and factories, like the dirty bastard tyrants that we are.

Volcanic archipelagoes sound fun, though. Hell, even Iceland sounds fun to play Tropico on.
But I do think the idea of "geography-as-fantasy" should be considered by Haemimont, when designing the overall "feel" of the game.

I wonder if T3 will do a better job of dealing with Tropico culture and gender?

More occupations need to be dual gender.

The work-force at the start, 1950, should be primarily male.

At some point, female representation in many jobs, should opened up or be broadened.

I favor having El Prez enact a Tropico ERA

BASED UPON THE T1 PEOPLE CHART

Uneducated

FARMER --- male & female represented
LABORER --- male & female represented; at start should be male-only
MINER --- male only; OK if is stays that way
DOCKWORKER --- male only; OK if is stays that way
MAID --- female only; OK if is stays that way
BARMAID --- female only; OK if is stays that way
LUMBERJACK --- male only; OK if is stays that way
TEAMSTER --- male only; OK if is stays that way
FISHERMAN --- male only; OK if is stays that way
SHOWGIRL --- female only; OK if is stays that way
COOK --- female only; should be dual gender
ATTENDANT --- male only; OK if is stays that way

High School Educated

PRIEST --- male only; OK if is stays that way
SOLDIER --- male only; OK if is stays that way
PIT BOSS --- male only; OK if is stays that way
TEACHER --- female only; should be dual gender
FACTORY WORKER --- male & female represented; even in 1950, a significant number of factory workers would be female... paid less than men doing the same work
ATHLETE --- male only; OK if is stays that way
POLICEMAN --- male only; OK if is stays that way
SHOPKEEPER --- female only; should be dual gender
BUREAUCRAT --- female only; should be dual gender; at start should be male-only

College Educated

GENERAL --- male only; OK if is stays that way
BISHOP --- male only; OK if is stays that way
PROFESSOR --- male only; should be dual gender; at start should be male-only
ENGINEER --- female only; should be dual gender; at start should be male-only
JOURNALIST --- female only; should be dual gender; at start should be male-only
BANKER --- male only; OK if is stays that way
DOCTOR --- I know of lengthy, passionate, and long-winded, "debates" over the actual gender of the DOCTOR... I'm not going down that road It should be... should be dual gender; at start should be male-only

Not a prefect "guide" to gender in Tropico, but more accurate and a better representation, than what has preceded it