DISCLAIMER:
THIS SOFTWARE IS PROVIDED BY A.W. 'SWIXEL' STANLEY ''AS IS'' AND ANY EXPRESS OR IMPLIED WARRANTIES, INCLUDING, BUT NOT LIMITED TO, THE IMPLIED WARRANTIES OF MERCHANTABILITY AND FITNESS FOR A PARTICULAR PURPOSE ARE DISCLAIMED. IN NO EVENT SHALL A.W. 'SWIXEL' STANLEY OR CONTRIBUTORS BE LIABLE FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, EXEMPLARY, OR CONSEQUENTIAL DAMAGES (INCLUDING, BUT NOT LIMITED TO, PROCUREMENT OF SUBSTITUTE GOODS OR SERVICES; LOSS OF USE, DATA, OR PROFITS; OR BUSINESS INTERRUPTION) HOWEVER CAUSED AND ON ANY THEORY OF LIABILITY, WHETHER IN CONTRACT, STRICT LIABILITY, OR TORT (INCLUDING NEGLIGENCE OR OTHERWISE) ARISING IN ANY WAY OUT OF THE USE OF THIS SOFTWARE, EVEN IF ADVISED OF THE POSSIBILITY OF SUCH DAMAGE.

This disclaimer is here because I honestly cannot tell you what completely blowing the lid off the limits could do to your computer. This is here to answer the call for the removal of limits, and will hopefully demonstrate why they didn't. Expect crashes, instant-restarts, and a very slow game. Do not raise the process priority above normal or you may not be able to quit.

The message here is that: you use this at your own risk, or not at all.

Timo has already posted this:

(25-10-2011 03:18 PM)Timo Wrote:  Again, it shall be officially noted that you are no longer eligible for Kalypso customer support (via email or phone) if you are running one of these mods, as we simply can't foresee or test the consequences this may have on the game's behaviour. By allowing these modifications, we are already stretching the end user license agreement - so please proceed with caution and use it at your own risk!

Newest version of the mod. People keep asking (as if this is hard?), so here:

1. Go to the directory with "Tropico 4.exe" in it.
2. Create a folder called "Game".
3. Save this as "nolimits.lua" within the Game folder.

Bumping thread due to new mod attachment and shift in topic, moving additional data here.

----- Original post/thread continues below ----

Technical Considerations

These limits are imposed by the physical (by which I mean 'bound by physics') nature of your CPUs. People who say "but I have a six core AMD" need to go look at outcomes from recent performance tests between Intel's quad cores and AMDs, and people who have Intel CPUs need to realise that their CPU isn't some sort of magical box capable of anything, it's just capable of a lot more than their old system was.

On a Q9550 I can get the game up to 17,000 people after I modify half a dozen of the limit aspects found in both the binary and the lua. Past 6,000 the game starts to get latency issues, and it gets unstable if you boost the speed past. It has been tested on much better systems than this and the crashes and slow down are around the same point. The crash we recieve isn't the result of a game object limit, it isn't the result of the population limit, and it isn't the result of any other internal limit -- I removed them.

We get a crash due to the vast number of ticks running in the background. At the bare minimum, you need to run a single query, per 'day', for each individual, structure, and other meaningful entities (which includes trees, animals, plants, etc.). For example: fields are comprised of individual entities strapped together using some rather beautiful logic, and they use 8+ queries/tick. These should be treated similarly to trees, with a wrapper around them to yield the 9th tick. They may also be queried by the farm, meaning you get 10 ticks, one of which may re-run another. If the farm has 4 workers, that's another 4 work ticks if they are there, but otherwise the individuals themselves have a minimum of a single tick.

By the time you reach 1500 people, you have 1500 ticks + buildings + trees + animals. 4,000 ticks per second probably sounds easy, except that you pass from month to month in less than 5 seconds, meaning that you have 30 ticks / 5 seconds (from poorly measured time). This means that you're doing 24,000+ ticks per second, and some of this is threaded (meaning the potential for a deadlock arises). The more threads running the slower time passes (hence the slowdown at 6,000), and the greater the risk of engine instability.

The engine is incredibly strong, and in parts written with optimisations that make reversing it a nightmare (there's a particular function I reversed four times before I was certain it was right, and even then the magic involved is beyond beautiful). It is fast, it is clean, it is as light on RAM as can be expected, given that it needs fast and clean access to structures of individual units.

Each unit is an instance, but instead of blindly inheriting, it appears to be copied into place (which is why Tyrannus lags if you have 1500 people and you ban 300 from driving). This is why certain functions (including my own), lock down the game with a pause -- it stops deadlocks because processing ceases on a lot of things. This is the reason that we need so much RAM to play the game.

Could we resolve this by having more RAM and more CPU power?

The short answer is no. The game wasn't designed to run on a cluster, and the overhead between threads or processes would be prohibitive. Given a full engine rehaul maybe they could make it scale in an infinite way, but the XBox limit is hard due to the reasonably underpowered hardware it uses, and the PC limit is low for the lower end of the user's kit. People may want an overhaul, but I don't think too many people would be prepared to pay $90+ for Tropico 5, so maybe you should align your expectations with your wallet. If you think that's offensive, stop and remember that even the Supreme Commander series lags hopelessly with a few thousand units on the field, and Tropico does more thinking (I didn't even count the movement ticks, or the pathfinding ticks).

You're wrong and don't know what you're talking about

Maybe, maybe not, but I've tested it on various systems and observation and desk checking indicates that we're reaching performance limits of the operating system due to the number of ticks running per second. We reach a point where you'll be playing is near realtime (so a day will be a day) if you were to get your way. Maybe a 3,000 limit is possible, but people have reported crashes on >1200, so why would Kalypso want to support something that no longer runs on their recommended requirements?

(25-10-2011 01:19 AM)Swixel Wrote:  Place (read: do not extract) into Tropico 4's Folder\Packs\boot\persist\

If you can get this onto the XBox360, there's a good chance this will work for you, but expect your console to lock up early into the 2000 mark (if not earlier) due to the relatively low end hardware (in contrast to the PC requirements, at least). You may need to extract it from the HPK on the XBox360, and you'll also need to find out where it goes. If you extract it, make the path: Game\Swixel\nolimits and put the init.lua file in there. The path isn't hugely important, but it'll keep things in a place that means you'll always know what they are.

One question, whilst the game will eventually lock up, can you confirm that no damage will actually be done to the 360 itself.

Also can you point me to some sort of tutorial of how to go about doing this please.

To get it on the 360 (if possible at all) i would guess you would need some sort of modded console

with a hacked savegame of a certain game (dont know which one it was anymore)

You can softmod your xbox (you can completely reverse that process, so no warranty issues)

Then you can place another console Operating system on it (usually some homebrew unix) which support a lot more (file browsing copy etc, more movie types supported etc etc etc). However this is a kind of geekish stuff, but you could google it and see if you can find anything.

ALWAYS PROCEED WITH CAUTION!

Thank you very much for the material you provided as Technical Considerations ; it is very useful.

(25-10-2011 02:11 PM)Mexicola1984 Wrote:  To get it on the 360 (if possible at all) i would guess you would need some sort of modded console

Well in a game called Rugby Challenge, recently released, the guys have made updated rosters by taking the save file, transferring it to PC, chuck it into some software called Modio, replace the file, and put it back. I'm not really interested in modding my console so if it can't be done any other way then so be it.

Again, it shall be officially noted that you are no longer eligible for Kalypso customer support (via email or phone) if you are running one of these mods, as we simply can't foresee or test the consequences this may have on the game's behaviour. By allowing these modifications, we are already stretching the end user license agreement - so please proceed with caution and use it at your own risk!

Also, running this mod on a retail Xbox 360 console is technically impossible as you don't have any access to its filesystem.

(25-10-2011 02:03 PM)Mikeeboy Wrote:  One question, whilst the game will eventually lock up, can you confirm that no damage will actually be done to the 360 itself.

Also can you point me to some sort of tutorial of how to go about doing this please.

No, and no. I don't have a 360, and I have zero interest in owning one. All I'm pointing out is that from the code I've reversed, the lua script should execute.

The lock-up and crash will be caused by it trying to store more in RAM than there is RAM, or because the CPU will grind to a halt signalling the OS that something is wrong (provided the 360 has GC/safeguards for this, which it may not).

It is certainly a "use at your own risk" scenario on that, even if you can get it running. On the PC, Windows kills it well before stability becomes an issue -- on Linux (in WINE) you can go a fair bit further before WINE segfaults out due to deadlocks.

(25-10-2011 03:18 PM)Timo Wrote:  Also, running this mod on a retail Xbox 360 console is technically impossible as you don't have any access to its filesystem.

Interesting. I thought someone had copied data to the XBox360's disk and modified things, but I must have misunderstood.

(25-10-2011 10:05 PM)Swixel Wrote:  Interesting. I thought someone had copied data to the XBox360's disk and modified things, but I must have misunderstood.

Well, typically it's not possible. There may be ways to access the filesystem using exploits and whatnot, but the retail consoles are very closed in this regard. Freely accessing the filesystem is possible on special test and development units only. I have not heard of any "mods" being available or in widespread use for Xbox 360 games. The barrier of entry is just too high.

Fair enough then. As I said, I'm not huge on the console scene, I just know people were saying various actions were possible.

Either way, blowing the limits on the 360 wouldn't be fantastic for the hardware, because I don't remember any safeguards in the whitepapers I've read!

Side note, can you make a option version? I know it wouldn't be hard at this point. I'd like to have this mod but instead of 1m pop limit, I'd like to see a mod with a 5,000 person pop limit and unlimited roads. My computer would have no issues with that in anyway, I just see me getting to 16,000 and having problems. I mean keep this up for those who want but also have a second one for those of us who just want a little bit more people but not a lot.

Maybe? Yes? Love you long time?

Messing with the UI is incredibly time consuming, but I've considered it. It would be on the main menu if I put it in at all. I haven't looked into how the input system works, but I'd imagine I could get my head around it later.

Anyway, the primary point of this is to release a fix for what people seriously consider to be a problem. At 5,000 people you could just drop yourself into "Tropico First"/"No Immigration" status and be done with it. It'll stop everything but on-island pregnancies, and emmigration should exceed the birth rate.

Granted, but I mean I was just using 5,000 as a random figure. I'd like the idea of a fixed rate, just saying, since when it gets to the limit it still allows immigration to the island and births but slows the rate, the policies in place would either screw you in several years down the road or still grow way past 5,000. Just thoughts, comrade.

Thanks for the mod, I'm willing to give it a try while keeping monitoring software open on my 2nd monitor to keep track of any heat related issues due to overworking the hardware.

No biggie if it gets too hot, I can simply remove the mod and play as normal again.

Do I have to start a new game to see the effects of this mod?

And of course...a big hearty THANK YOU to Swixel.

Not sure, to be honest. I suspect it should work without needing a new game.

I tried, you dont have to start a new game. But as the first ship arrived, it brought 288 immigrants oO Thats quite a lot at once. Is it possible to have a maximum number of immigrants per ship?

Yeah ... your maximum immigration per ship will be 375. There are some other factors that I didn't mess with, so it'll be higher.

Anything higher than about 750 will crash your game, so I put in that failsafe

I suggest putting that down to maybe 50 immigrants/ship. You'll still have your failsafe and the balancing will be much better. Also the 6000-'limit' ('limit' is the wrong word, but i am talking about the 'too-much-ticks-per-sec-boarder') won't be exceeded too fast. What do you think?

I have to admit: Don't change anything. I started a new game and there comes the point, when you expand and you have about 100 free jobs. All of a sudden, a ship arrived and brought about 250 immigrants. Before that, i had a maximum of about 15 immigrants per ship. After that run on my island, the rate dropped again to about 10 imi's/ship. And actually that feels kinda real. Like when people heard that there is a future on my island, they rush to get there. And there comes a new part of the game: overpopulation. It is fun to deal with it. Really, don't change anything to the mod regarding immigrants/ship. I dont know how you made it or if it was on purpose but it seems pretty balanced.

Kalypso should definitely hire you

I'm not sure I'd want to work for a publisher ... I mean, I have a degree that might make me valuable, but certainly not for coding

Besides, my coding skills don't align with my reversing skills ... so while I've literally ripped every secret out of the game's code (with varied levels of understanding), my own attempts (both past and present) to make a casual indie game fall apart in far too many places. Modding is easy -- writing from scratch is seriously rather difficult. Though I'll grant you, I'm finding Lua to be far less annoying than my Python scripting integration (though I miss boost::python for CPP<->Scripting), but that does nothing to resolve rendering, which remains maths-driven and irksome.

As for the balance, I looked into if it would become unbalanced and then installed what I called a "failsafe". It's just the single point of failure where the check was carefully balanced in their code, and I just ensured it was retained. If you want to raise/lower it, I'm sure finding 375 in the code isn't too hard -- remember it'll be 77 01 00 00 (endianness). I'm fairly sure Haemimont put it there deliberately, I just followed in their footsteps

(27-10-2011 12:03 AM)Timo Wrote:  

(25-10-2011 10:05 PM)Swixel Wrote:  Interesting. I thought someone had copied data to the XBox360's disk and modified things, but I must have misunderstood.

Well, typically it's not possible. There may be ways to access the filesystem using exploits and whatnot, but the retail consoles are very closed in this regard. Freely accessing the filesystem is possible on special test and development units only. I have not heard of any "mods" being available or in widespread use for Xbox 360 games. The barrier of entry is just too high.

typically to run mods on X-360 and PS3, and all the others you need to chip them.. basically that means you need to rip the guts out, and replace a chip that allows for cracked software to run. typically its also used to allow people to run coppied games, But its the only way to run a cracked program as well.

Hmm.. I can't seem to start tropico 4 with the mod as game would crash to desktop right away. I thought it is due to I overclocking the cpu but it is still the same result after i turn off overclocking.


I am not sure if my steam version of game is 1.03 or not. Kalypso launcher shows 1.03 change but at bottom right corner it only shows tropico 4 version 1.0.

All I can suggest is checking the location of where you put it, and that your game is 1.03.

Past that, without more information I can't really do or say anything that might help. The game not starting shouldn't be mod related, unless you've put something in the wrong place.

I haven't tried this mod yet, but thanks - definitely seems really useful. Only thing I was wondering - you mention that slodown occurs at around 6,000. Would it be possible therefore to have a version of this with a population limit of say 5,000 or 5,500, so we can play to the maximum population that the game supports?

(30-10-2011 12:33 PM)CCCP Wrote:  I haven't tried this mod yet, but thanks - definitely seems really useful. Only thing I was wondering - you mention that slodown occurs at around 6,000. Would it be possible therefore to have a version of this with a population limit of say 5,000 or 5,500, so we can play to the maximum population that the game supports?

I toally support your request. This would be another failsafe.

Yes, setting a lower limit is possible and even easy, but I've been busy and away from the computers which have the source for the mod on them. I should be back near them (with enough time to actually open and tweak the files) in ~12 hours if all goes well.

The delay isn't due to that anyway, it's that I really wanted to add a UI instance to this, but that's a fair bit more work. I know you may just say "don't worry about it", but it's really a lot easier to just default it to 6,000 on launch and let you change it each time on the main menu screen.

(30-10-2011 07:30 AM)Swixel Wrote:  All I can suggest is checking the location of where you put it, and that your game is 1.03.

Past that, without more information I can't really do or say anything that might help. The game not starting shouldn't be mod related, unless you've put something in the wrong place.

I am sure that I put in right place since I have mod the game base on your mod tutorial and as matter of fact I tried unpack your hpk file and merge with the mod I made for myself. (I tried remove my mod and use no-limited only and game still crash right off bat.)

On the credit menu it shows my game is 1.03.301. I guess maybe it doesn't work with steam version.

Oh well..