CoconutKid Wrote:

dadadadadanny Wrote:that looks like a pretty typical church to me guys, it is covered by blue tile on the exterior, which the portuguese are known for doing, along with the spanish, its a big thing in the Iberian penn. (spain/portugal) it came from the moors originally, and the portuguese/spanish brought it over with them to the 'new world' ...

Your examples are from the 18th century. Is there a logical connection with the story line of the game?

An essay on church architecture is not needed to establish that a small island in the Caribbean which started from next to nothing for population and infrastructure in 1950 would be unlikely to have faux 18th century churches -- or even structures resembling them which might be recycled churches.

What may be needed is an essay on anachronisms.

First of all, not all Tropico Islands just 'started', some do have a longer history.
Second, what makes you believe that Caribbean churches constructed in the '50's would not resemble the traditional architectural styles?
How would a 1950 Caribbean church look like in your book?

Ardanwen has a point, your tropico island has some history before 1950, you pick how your dictator came to power in T1, which has to mean their were leaders before. CoconutKid, with your line of thinking, then the tropico palace from T1 also wouldnt have a logical connection to the game, because that definitely isnt a typical 1950's building either.

Ardanwen Wrote:

CoconutKid Wrote:

dadadadadanny Wrote:that looks like a pretty typical church to me guys, it is covered by blue tile on the exterior, which the portuguese are known for doing, along with the spanish, its a big thing in the Iberian penn. (spain/portugal) it came from the moors originally, and the portuguese/spanish brought it over with them to the 'new world' ...

Your examples are from the 18th century. Is there a logical connection with the story line of the game?

An essay on church architecture is not needed to establish that a small island in the Caribbean which started from next to nothing for population and infrastructure in 1950 would be unlikely to have faux 18th century churches -- or even structures resembling them which might be recycled churches.

What may be needed is an essay on anachronisms.

First of all, not all Tropico Islands just 'started', some do have a longer history.
Second, what makes you believe that Caribbean churches constructed in the '50's would not resemble the traditional architectural styles?
How would a 1950 Caribbean church look like in your book?

dadadadadanny Wrote:Ardanwen has a point, your tropico island has some history before 1950, you pick how your dictator came to power in T1, which has to mean their were leaders before. CoconutKid, with your line of thinking, then the tropico palace from T1 also wouldnt have a logical connection to the game, because that definitely isnt a typical 1950's building either.

Boian Spassov: The beginning island is inhabited by only a few, primitive people living in shacks and earning a living solely by farming. The Player starts in the role of dictator who is only interested in staying in office. But we will also provide alternatives for the Player who does not want to be dictator but would rather be a paternalistic "leader" ...

I have said before:
This is the habitual and formulaic approach of game developers to purely city and/or civilization building games. It has its appeal for a generalized situation which has a time line that runs over several hundred years.

It simply does not fit the situation of a Caribbean island in the mid-20th century at the start of the cold war. Almost all of these islands already had three or four centuries of history of the rise and fall of cultures and economies. They were primitive only in the sense of modern poverty, and being in the back-water of WWII.

One of the greatest weaknesses of T1 was the AI which set-up the buildings for a "random" game/map. The programming of that AI was the only "primitive" thing about the Tropico it produced. Many experienced players soon decided to start with a blank island and add their own rational positioning of start-up buildings.

Players chose the 'dictator characteristics' with great care, but the set of buildings and their locations [provided by the AI] had no link to the dictator's character [or the story line it implied].

Haemimont should consider a wider concept for the "beginning island" configuration for the typical start in T3.

What I have stated in this thread is simply the logical follow-on of the development decision to start from a zero base as T1 did.

No, you are complaining about the architectural style of the Church building in this topic, which is in your view apparently not "historically correct". Your point being that the Tropico Island does not have an actual history that would justify having the Iberian-styled Churches, as the Churches would be constructed after 1950 and not by the Iberians.
The flaw in your idea about this is that there is no reason to mark these Churches in Tropico as an anachronism, it's not because Tropico is a new island that its buildings can't be designed after or inspired by the 'traditional' architectural styles.

Ardanwen Wrote:[1]First of all, not all Tropico Islands just 'started', some do have a longer history.
[2]Second, what makes you believe that Caribbean churches constructed in the '50's would not resemble the traditional architectural styles?
[3]How would a 1950 Caribbean church look like in your book?

#1 - I think my previous post covered that issue.

#2 - I think the "church" was limited in its funds whether they were from the parish faithful or were "supplemented" by government grants. The church was always ready to maintain/reconstruct well established buildings loved by the parishioners, a new building would be a matter of functional economy. Pseudo-historical reproductions would be rare. IMO

#3 - If it were completely new, it certainly would NOT be a poorly done reproduction of a colonial era building. It could be a wide variety of styles adapted to the climate and known hazards. Vast areas of poured concrete walls would not be included.

However, that is not the whole story. It's the verisimilitude of the game that matters. If the market population for the game has had no contact with the Caribbean, careful accuracy (in time line or not) makes no difference.

Ardanwen Wrote:... The flaw in your idea about this is that there is no reason to mark these Churches in Tropico as an anachronism, it's not because Tropico is a new island that its buildings can't be designed after or inspired by the 'traditional' architectural styles.

I have to suggest that this is devolving into an un-game related argument.

I don't care what might actually inspire the architectural style of a Caribbean church.

In the game, you are going to get one style church and one style cathedral which last for the entire period of the game.

If the people who buy the game are satisfied that those buildings look like what is on a small Caribbean island during their gameplay, then all is well.

Frankly, I hadn't considered it before you started flogging it -- but now I am unhappy with the T1 "New England" style Church and "Pseudo-Something" Cathedral.

CoconutKid Wrote:I am unhappy with the T1 "New England" style Church and "Pseudo-Something" Cathedral.

I don't think the Cathedral has been up in any screenshots yet. It looks really nice.

Hm....I was thinking that the building might be a fire department. The towers could be used to dry the fire hoses.

The fire station in Cardenas, Cuba, looks also somewhat similar. http://www.guije.com/pueblo/municipios/m...mberos.htm

CoconutKid Wrote:Frankly, I hadn't considered it before you started flogging it -- but now I am unhappy with the T1 "New England" style Church and "Pseudo-Something" Cathedral.

*chuckle*

Sorry!

I didn't really care about the Church in T1, but for example the Cathedral and the College were indeed kind of weird to see on my tiny Tropico Island

But look, I'm a history student myself so I do enjoy it when games take a more 'historical correct route', but when it comes down to it, I prefer the developers focus on gameplay and creating a general art syle that 'fits'. Tropico is an idealised, pretty version of the Caribbean. It resembles the vision a lot of people have about Cuba (in Europe anyway): paradise island, 'good' dictatorship with a happy, relaxing atmosphere and lots of dancing on cool music. Not quite realistic of course But since that is the style of Tropico, I'd rather have buildings that fit into this general art and atmosphere style.
If Tropico would profilate itself as a historical correct game I'd be critising possible errors as well.

Ardanwen Wrote:... But look, I'm a history student myself so I do enjoy it when games take a more 'historical correct route', but when it comes down to it, I prefer the developers focus on gameplay and creating a general art syle that 'fits'. Tropico is an idealised, pretty version of the Caribbean. It resembles the vision a lot of people have about Cuba (in Europe anyway): paradise island, 'good' dictatorship with a happy, relaxing atmosphere and lots of dancing on cool music. Not quite realistic of course. But since that is the style of Tropico, I'd rather have buildings that fit into this general art and atmosphere style. ...

I can not but agree with that level-headed statement.

Those of us who hoped for a sharp turn toward a more historical simulation must now surrender to the market forces. It's sad that the game will be driven by the European myth about Cuba rather than a better amalgamation of the Caribbean zone.

At this point on the development calendar it doesn't make any difference anyway. The fans' role is now simply to follow the cheer leaders and wait for the curtain to be lifted on the selected details.

I very much like your phrase: >>the general art and atmosphere style<<

Its always seen in the near of Casinos...
so
the suggestion is obvious that it is a BANK

pls solve the riddle

Well, there is a man walking by the enterence wearing a bowler hat, so it could be a bank. In some screen shots there are two very close to each other. In some of the early screen shots it was right next to the church on the square. It also seems to be near the palace in a lot of shots. Makes me think that it is a basic need building. I would guess that it is a clinic.

I think the church is next to the blue building in this picture
http://forum.kalypsomedia.com/attachment.php?aid=121
And the cathedral is opposite the blue building in this picture
http://forum.kalypsomedia.com/attachment.php?aid=119

Lyubo_Haemimont Wrote:... I don't think the Cathedral has been up in any screenshots yet. It looks really nice.

It looks nice; the church looks nice. But they are not post-1950. My point was/is neither the religious organization nor El Prez (who is paying) would spend the extra money to build an historical reproduction.

It doesn't make any difference to discuss/debate it here. The building art work was cast in stone probably as part of the proposal for the contract long before the announcement of T3.

Naturally I push for the simulation side of the game development since I consider that is the side of the games which are neglected. I regret that I was so far behind the mental power curve that I neglected to take into account all the preliminary work that went into the contract negociations.

Stupid me! There was very little left to discuss with "fans" at the point of announcement. No wonder all the more astute members at Cafe Tropico have been so silent.

El Meck Wrote:Its always seen in the near of Casinos -- so the suggestion is obvious that it is a BANK.

Perhaps so, but if so they are expensive to staff and maintain.

We know for sure they are not "Pubs" (a stupid name) or other first tier entertainment buildings.

They are so plentiful in the screenies -- perhaps they are just decorations -- like the shams of the Potemkim villages?

Has anyone found a "Pub"?

How do you know they are expensive to staff and maintain? If true, I think that is further support for it being a clinic. Doctors are expensive, and I have not seen any other building that would fulfil this role. Indeed, has anyone spotted a hospital?

In this picture, you can see what a pub should look like from the build menu (as well as other entertainment buildings)
http://forum.kalypsomedia.com/attachment.php?aid=123

Richmond Wrote:How do you know they are expensive to staff and maintain? If true, I think that is further support for it being a clinic. Doctors are expensive, and I have not seen any other building that would fulfil this role. Indeed, has anyone spotted a hospital?

In this picture, you can see what a pub should look like from the build menu (as well as other entertainment buildings) snip

Banks are staffed by Bankers who are college graduates - or so I assume from T1. There are more Bankers to a Bank than Doctors to a Clinic, again an assumption from T1.

The Hospital is the blue and white building with the "circled H" on the roof.

Yes, now that you know what the PUB looks like from the build menu, have you found one? There should be lots of them rather than lots of night clubs - which are easy to find.

Just wondering.

But why would there be two banks so close to each other? And why (although I can accept the early screenshots were more for show) would this building always be so close to a church? From T1, the clinic was always built near the church as it was one of the first buildings. Although again that doesn't prove anything.

While that seems a resonable assumption that the blue and white building is the hospital, do you know for sure? It also looks like quite a small building for a hospital. If that is the hospital then it seem very unlikely that my idea on the other building being a clinic is right, as the clinic would not be much different in size to the hospital.

I have not seen anything that resembles a bank, so it most likely is one. Although could the bank be that enclosed building?

I think the areas most of the screenshots are taken from are to upmarket for pubs. But no, I can't see any pubs.

Lyubo_Haemimont Wrote:Heh... The purpose of the building is written on the building itself. Not sure if you will be able to decode the sign from the screenshots but it's there.

I finally found the early screenie with the sign over the front door clearly visible. There are several screenies showing the fountain in a small plaza with a Church, Army Base, "the blue building", and an Apartment House around it. One zooms in fairly close, and there is the sign: BANK!

Quote:Has anyone found a "Pub"?

[sigh] I had hoped that T3 would have renamed the PUB to something more appropriate... like the CANTINA.

Quote:One zooms in fairly close, and there is the sign: BANK!

I spent ages looking at that picture, and still didn't spot it. Yet there it is, clear as day. You don't even have to zoom in to see it! Doh!! Well spotted though.

I wonder if the use of the bank is more important, as that area with the church and apartment etc doesn't look like an area that really needs a bank. Though it could be just because it looks good rather than having a real functional role. Yet banks seem to crop up in nearly all screenshots.

Man thats a lot of banks

Richmond Wrote:... I wonder if the use of the bank is more important, as that area with the church and apartment etc doesn't look like an area that really needs a bank. Though it could be just because it looks good rather than having a real functional role. Yet banks seem to crop up in nearly all screenshots.

I'm not sure what you mean by "an area that really needs a bank". The only area that "needs" banks is that near to hotels and luxury hotels. T3 hotels of all flavors look like they have greater capacity that those of T1. If the T3 banks still have five bankers, you would want one per 50 hotel & luxury hotel tourist capacity. Meanwhile, you want four or five urban development banks and need to put them somewhere. Offhand, I don't recall the effectiveness of multiple banks set to "presidental slush fund (Swiss Banking)"; but you need some - and a place to put them.

No, I am not sure what I mean either! You are of course correct. It just felt like everywhere I looked there was a bank. For that picture on the square, I don't know why but it just felt like an odd place for a bank. I felt like it was there for asethetic reasons. But as you say, why not have a bank there. I guess for my play style banks don't always feature very highly, though I don't often go tourist.

Richmond Wrote:... I guess for my play style banks don't always feature very highly, though I don't often go tourist.

I can understand not using banks by style of play.

But it seems too bad to associate them so closely with tourism. If you are playing with a city building orientation, the "Urban Development" setting makes them valuable.

---

I can adjust to this portrayal of the Bank Building. I can't escape the feeling that building it AFTER 1950 is a violation of the time-line.

I see what you mean with regards to the buildings. All the ones from T1 were very 1950's+. I do appreciate the fact that my island can have a colonial image to it, but I do take your point as far as building in the 1950's onwards. So I must say I am torn as to which is better.

As for the banks, by the time I was in a position to aford them and staff them I had more than enough money coming out of my ears. They usually were set to Prez slush fund. Perhaps I should try and get them in earlier. So I never really saw banks as key to my stratergy (or indeed that important all round).

very nice CK
a question less for the scientists of Tropicoism

may the pubs be the green, 3 stories high, buildings with the sunshades on the roof? (in the interface sreenshot the pub got sunshades on the roof)
http://www.tropico3.com/de/images/12b.jpg
http://www.tropico3.com/de/images/15b.jpg
http://www.tropico3.com/de/images/16b.jpg

and its often seen

but maybe its only a residence

WHEW! Some one with a great eye put "Bank" to rest - THANKS!!

The green building could be a pub. Also, in the screen which features the small downtown area (with the beach and the zoo) - there is a brown, multi-gabled building on each side of the street. This might also be the pub?

If you pause the german gameplay vid on the "housing" tab (when it appears briefly), that the green OR blue 3-story rectangular buildings are condominiums. One of them is in there, at least (not sure which one, since the drawings on the tab are all in sepia tone).

For the PUB, I am leaning toward the brown, multi-gabled building.

Well, I assume that the pub will be similar in size and shape to the the restaurant (at least that is how it looks in the building manager of this shot http://tropico.simlish.co.uk/images/shot...-06b.jpg). There is what I believe to be a restaurant in this shot,

http://tropico.simlish.co.uk/images/shot...ce-05b.jpg

over the road from the bank/hosptal building at the intersection. I assume therefore that the pub will be a single story (though perhaps wider) building. The shot in the building manager does not look like the brown building, and I think the building is probably to big for a pub.

It is possible that the building in front of the casino in this shot is a pub, but the screen cuts most of it off so it is hard to say. There is also a restaurant and a gourmet restaurant in this shot very near by.

http://tropico.simlish.co.uk/images/shot...ce-02b.jpg

I wonder what the building next to the one I identifyed as the restaurant is? Also, what are the small buildings on the road to the left of the second screen shot I references? Are they shops or something?

that is the restaurant this is a close up shot of it.
http://forum.kalypsomedia.com/attachment.php?aid=90