FritoPatata's Transportation Guide, Roads and Garages for the Masses
#31
hdphan: It's a constant juggling act. In my opinion, it's up to the player to keep the budget good. What I mean is that even if my island is bringing in 1,000,000 per export season, if it were humanly possible (and Im sure it is), I could spend all of that and be 10k in debt again. So it's really just up to the player to not spend as much as they are earning. There are many years in T3 that I will spend all that I earned in the previous harvest of $$ or close to all of it. But then may come a couple seasons that I don't and so my treaury is full again, until I go on a spending building binge again and spend it all again. So as long as you have a solid income that is not affected by outside forces (i.e. game scripted events) then you'll always have a positive income and it's just a matter of the player not spending over that. As the years go on in T3, and you have more real industry, you start to bring in sums of cash that are actually very hard to spend it all, so it gets downright easy after a few seasons in Tropico. it's just a matter of getting over the initial hump of making the transition from raw industries (farming, logging etc) to the real industries (furniture, distilling of rum, jewelery etc), once you are into the real industries money comes flowing in hand over foot and it's only then a matter of making sure that product is moving from the shops to the port.

You should only need to take it slow in the beginning until you have some money to play with, then invest it not always in what the game suggests but in bettering the industry on your island since they bring in more income so that you can expand faster at that point. Slow going turtle in the begining couple of years, then act as the hare later in the game when you'll be able to sprint spend as much as you like almost.

I don't generally build another Teamster bulding until I check with the different industries (farms, factories jewelers etc) to see if there is a mass of products sitting in the shops, if there is then I check my current teamsters to make sure that it is full of employees, if it is then it's time for another teamsters to rush move stuff to the port authority for sale. Always make sure that your current teamsters buildings are full of employees before building another one or it's just a waste. Raise their wages if it's not full and eventually people will take those positions.
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#32
@Frito: ahh i see. I built two teamster right at the beginning and i guess i have employees hanging around and have nothing to do. And I thought that since the citizens is spending 1/3 of their salaries for housing, i must reduce the fee for pubs and restaurants.

@City Builder: I typically dont spend a lot of money on building after an export season. I sometimes build 1 or 2 more buildings and my cash is still positive, but then it keeps going down, which i guess due to maintainance fees and stuff, and eventually make my country goes into debt. I am still trying to figure out how to get money back from the people not losing money to nowhere all the times and find myself in debt and unable to build new buildings
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#33
Then you simply don't have enough buildings/commercial/industry that is making you money. Build more, invest in your industry and it will go up. There comes a point where you build enough industry to offset your expenditures. Really that's all this economy is about, having more industry that makes money than having stuff that costs money, so just spend your money to build more income producing buildings instead of amenities. However how your people will react will depend on the overall difficulty settigns I believe. In a sandbox game simply start off by building a couple more farms and a logging building and let the game run, you will see that you have a positive income what with exports and the US/USSR extra money, after a couple seasons.
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#34
(12-11-2009, 10:27 PM)hdphan Wrote: @Frito: ahh i see. I built two teamster right at the beginning and i guess i have employees hanging around and have nothing to do. And I thought that since the citizens is spending 1/3 of their salaries for housing, i must reduce the fee for pubs and restaurants.

@City Builder: I typically dont spend a lot of money on building after an export season. I sometimes build 1 or 2 more buildings and my cash is still positive, but then it keeps going down, which i guess due to maintainance fees and stuff, and eventually make my country goes into debt. I am still trying to figure out how to get money back from the people not losing money to nowhere all the times and find myself in debt and unable to build new buildings

Yes, don't build any additional teamster offices right away. You will be paying people to do nothing, and you will be reducing the pool of people who could be working at your farms, mines, and ranches. If you do the 3 farms, you're going to want to build a garage near them, which will come with 2 teamsters and that should be plenty to move your goods coupled with your default teamster office. Also, always build a garage near where your people live... having a remote garage does no good without a starting one.

I thought the same thing as well, thinking if they are spending say $2 on housing they can only spend $4 at the pub. But that doesn't appear to be how the game operates. They will spend up to their maximum salary on entertainment. Makes sense because they spend something like 3 game months at a time working.

The only way to constantly have a positive cash flow besides waiting for the ship to come in and export your goods is to have a profitable tourist industry. While this can work early in the game, I usually save tourism to the end, if at all.
My first act as El Presidente... Throw the Radio DJ off an oil platform with his feet in cement.
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#35
The saved game file as promised:

Downloadable save file for Puerto de Chivas Regal

Thanks for the info on mediafire.com CityBuilder, that was really easy... love not having to register.

Updates to the island since the screenshots:
  • Added an additional power plant, as the current system was nearly at capacity and any worker leaving was causing rolling blackouts
  • Demolished the gold mine as the resource was depleted in 2001, also demolished jewelry factory
  • Built 2 canneries for the matured coffee fields in the Industrial Sector
  • Built 2 army bases to allow space for more housing
  • Built some new condominiums outside the stadium on the cliff

Enjoy!
My first act as El Presidente... Throw the Radio DJ off an oil platform with his feet in cement.
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#36
Just a warning for anybody that cares. I read on another forum that if we open somebody elses island from the online challenge area (not a challenge but rather another users island that they uploaded) it will add the achievements that the island has obtained for the original owner of that island to your own achievements. I would imagine it's the same with just opening another persons shared sav file like the one here.

Personally I don't care about achievments, to me they are just another way that publishers or developers stick stuff into a game in an attempt to add a bit more challenge to the game for people to try to achieve things that the developers stick in there as such they mean nothing to me, however if you care about it, and don't want anybody else's achievements going into your player account then don't open any shared saved games and or the islands that you can download out of the online area of the game. You have been warned.

Thanks FritoPatata for sharing it, I'll have a nice look at it tonight.
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#37
So has anyone messed with the save file yet?
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#38
I haven't been able to dedicate as much time to it as I would like, but you did get me to re-open the island again this morning and take a break from my evil RPG gaming ways.

There seems to be a huge amount of traffic jams along the residential coastal areas:
Sorry for the large image, Tinypic doesn't seem to offer thumbnails, or I couldn't find the option
[Image: http://i33.tinypic.com/2uh63hc.jpg]
Adding another garage just to the left of the apartment (on right side of image next to fishing wharf) seems to do a lot to reduce traffic on that stretch of road.
[Image: http://i35.tinypic.com/fmi0yd.jpg]

Something odd that I found was vehicles that just go poof and disappear. I was under the impression that every vehicle has a destination and a purpose and that they are supposed to go from Point A to B and back again, yet I've seen them go poof and disappear from the game when there is no garage around that they might have 'sneaked' into. Maybe just a glitch due to population and limitation of CPU.
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#39
Once again thanks for the guide Frito. The problem that I ran into with my city is that I have traffic build ups. My population total is around 600. I'm bringing in over 1.5 million dollars. Plus, I really have no room to free up the traffic. Its one reason why I keep making a lot of sand box games. This way I can try to improve on where I messed up.
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#40
@CityBuilder- You know I have noticed the same thing. In my case i highly doubt it is due to CPU limitations. I have seen units teleport while on their way to distant locations. I have seen construction workers do this, for example, while walking to a distant electric substation construction point. I have seen them teleport from the bottom of a cliff to the top, as if they were unaware of the cliff when choosing the path, and there is something in the code to let them teleport when they are seemingly stuck or obstructed. I have also seen this with El Presidente's limo and El Presidente himself. It is almost as if the game has a maximum travel time coded into it, and after that time is surpassed the unit just jumps to wherever it is trying to go. Or if the unit is obstructed from movement for an extended time, it can do the same thing. I don't know... but I have seen this multiple times.
My first act as El Presidente... Throw the Radio DJ off an oil platform with his feet in cement.
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#41
Yes, I believe you are correct. This can be seen most easily in traffic waiting for people to cross the roads. There appears to be several solutions that they use...
1. If the car can't stop they will continue through the walking element (for example, if a car is traveling at full speed and a walker steps out into the intersection right in front of the moving vehicle, the vehicle doesn't even try to stop, it simply runs through the obstacle walker)
2. The car will stop (if it can) and wait for the walker to cross the street and get out of the way.
3. The car will stop and wait until the timer runs out and then it will simply drive through the walking element. I've seen this both at intersections where there should be a cross walk and with jaywalkers. The vehicle will only wait for so long (seems to be roughly the same period of time) for either jaywalkers or when at a crosswalk before it will ignore the obstacle and run through it.

So, it does appear there is some kind of timer that when it has expired the vehicles lose their safe and sane driving instructions and just run over the walking elements and or other cars even to get where ever they need to go I'm pretty sure that they attempted to adhere to not running over people and ghosting through other vehicles as best as they could as that's one of the single things that is reported most as a bug in a game that has that happening in it.
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#42
Besides teleporting there was something I discovered. When you devide the road network in two and let the game go on, cars will disappear and change back into a pedestrian on the spot. One should suppose that the person got out of the car and walked to the nearest garage of the other part of the road network.
It was probably not the intention to devide the road network.
@citybuilder: Maybe in time you edited a lot on your road network and somewhere build in an invisable devision.
But it shouldn't be like this of course.
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#43
@ City Builder, FritoPatata, and ilper:

The animations of the units can not be perfected to reflect absolutely real life and the natural world physics.

When you are watching the game world, you have to exercise some suspension of belief that everything is going to operate just as it does in your "real world" down town.

Well, then again -- I don't know your "down town" nor your expectations of what you see in a virtual world.

Anyway, you have found Haemimont's programmer's weaknesses, eh?
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#44
(16-11-2009, 09:27 PM)CoconutKid Wrote: @ City Builder, FritoPatata, and ilper:


Anyway, you have found Haemimont's programmer's weaknesses, eh?

Not a bad weakness unless we find the people that are getting run over have names from the developers families Big Grin

After playing more than my fair share of Simcity 4, I can honestly say that I don't give two stones toss about cars ghosting through other cars and or the inhabitants, it's just the nature of the beast. In SC4 cars never go from point A to B, they may start their travel, move about 2 to 4 inches on the map and then just disappear, I'm sure most Simcity 4 players don't care about this one little bit. I know I don't, it's just an observation.
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#45
(16-11-2009, 09:42 PM)City Builder Wrote:
(16-11-2009, 09:27 PM)CoconutKid Wrote: @ City Builder, FritoPatata, and ilper:


Anyway, you have found Haemimont's programmer's weaknesses, eh?

Not a bad weakness unless we find the people that are getting run over have names from the developers families Big Grin

After playing more than my fair share of Simcity 4, I can honestly say that I don't give two stones toss about cars ghosting through other cars and or the inhabitants, it's just the nature of the beast. In SC4 cars never go from point A to B, they may start their travel, move about 2 to 4 inches on the map and then just disappear, I'm sure most Simcity 4 players don't care about this one little bit. I know I don't, it's just an observation.

+1

The fact cars and people are disappearing and teleporting does not change my gameplay experience in the slightest. This is also due to my ungodly amount of time spent in SC4 and all the SCs before it. Also, as someone who dabbles in some programming as their profession, I know you have to have a failsafe for when something goes wrong... and bam. There it is.

Harmless in my eyes, but worth mentioning.
My first act as El Presidente... Throw the Radio DJ off an oil platform with his feet in cement.
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#46
(16-11-2009, 09:42 PM)City Builder Wrote: After playing more than my fair share of Simcity 4, I can honestly say that I don't give two stones toss about cars ghosting through other cars and or the inhabitants, it's just the nature of the beast. In SC4 cars never go from point A to B, they may start their travel, move about 2 to 4 inches on the map and then just disappear, I'm sure most Simcity 4 players don't care about this one little bit. I know I don't, it's just an observation.

Well I have a suspicion that the Haemimont developers decided that "Tropico 3" players would faint and froth at the mouth when they saw land vehicles and people ghosting through each other -- because that is why the roads are configured as they are and why vehicles do not go across country but are confined to roads and garages. Would it not be interesting to see a vehicle "ghosting through" the jungle of trees? A unit in its person form could get away with that. The problem is that players work at the conceptual level while the developers are forced to work at the "bits&bites" programming level.

While you don't care, how many other players not so sophisticated do worry about it? On the other hand, how many players always use "top speed" and never see this stuff?
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#47
I once watched a pregnant woman jaywalk causing both lanes of high traffic to stop. She went halfway across the road, apparently realizing that she was causing a problem, so she turned around and slowly waddled her way back to the other side. Only to then realize that she still wanted to cross the road and so therefore turned around and interrupted traffic yet again!

Needless to say, soliders quickly resolved the traffic incident but it was funny and frustrating to watch at the same time.
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#48
(16-11-2009, 10:06 PM)CoconutKid Wrote: While you don't care, how many other players not so sophisticated do worry about it? On the other hand, how many players always use "top speed" and never see this stuff?
I don't know that I'll ever be of the right mind that would consider something like this to be a problem, honestly i can't even step into the shoes of people that do, it's just one of those things that I just can't fathom getting all worked up about, and yet I see people do just that in every game that has this happen. Perhaps the mind of the people that are upset by things such as this are the more imaginative that often 'really get into' the whole RPG aspect of any game that they play and so it breaks the immersion for them when something like this happens and bends their nose out of shape. I think that Haemimont has done a more than reasonable job to minimize how much this happens.

I wish I had the screenshots still as I have seen a vehicle travel offroad in the game. I'm sure it was a total fluke but none the less interesting to see it in action.

The funniest thing I've seen is when a turtle was walking down the road (not across it) and the truck sat there behind the turtle for what seemed like an eternity. Finally he just ran over the turtle to get to his destination. Obviously showing that as far as the programming is concerned, it doesn't matter what the object is that blocks the path, they are all treated the same.
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#49
BIG BIG BIG Update today, revealing some new gameplay elements regarding transportation! Check out the main page for details! (post #4)
My first act as El Presidente... Throw the Radio DJ off an oil platform with his feet in cement.
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#50
(17-11-2009, 09:35 PM)FritoPatata Wrote: BIG BIG BIG Update today, revealing some new gameplay elements regarding transportation! Check out the main page for details! (post #4)

Whoa, nice finds indeed Frito! Cool
Those screenies are sweet although as said it could be tough to get proper loops on most maps.
I'll definately give this a go though,this looks really sweet but it'll be intresting how well it works without god-mode aswell ofcourse, might have to re-locate some stuff since you possibly cant afford all the garages and such right away.
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#51
decent guide.. but a lotta it is kinda hard to understand.. More in game screenies of what you are talking about would help a ton..


BTW your citys are from the couple pics you do have are like 5x bigger than any ive made.. Ill take some picks and show you mine at a later date..
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#52
(18-11-2009, 07:28 AM)Tropije Wrote: decent guide.. but a lotta it is kinda hard to understand.. More in game screenies of what you are talking about would help a ton..


BTW your citys are from the couple pics you do have are like 5x bigger than any ive made.. Ill take some picks and show you mine at a later date..

There are links to my flickr account that feature detailed screenshots of two separate cities I have done and documented. I think there is something like 70 images or so in total. Check the guides, particularly part 2 and 3 for links to this online album. I didn't want to post them directly to the thread, because it would severely slow down its load time.
My first act as El Presidente... Throw the Radio DJ off an oil platform with his feet in cement.
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#53
Bumping this to keep it fresh for the newbies.

Kalypso, it would be nice if we could have a forum section just for guides, where these types of things could be stickied. I have seen many guides that would be helpful throughout these forums, and it would prevent a lot of posting of the same topic.
My first act as El Presidente... Throw the Radio DJ off an oil platform with his feet in cement.
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#54
Okay, here's a quick addition to the concept: put the garages, and any service buildings on feeder roads. This gives a drop-off zone for the service buildings, and a queue for the garage. This will totally outweigh the penalty for an extra intersection, which is actually unrealistically small in this game. In case you haven't noticed, Tropico has an advanced camera based traffic light system which lets a Tropican go full speed through an intersection if there is no one waiting to cross, even on a ninety degree corner.

What slows Tropicans down is stopped cars. Yes, intersections generate stopped cars, but so do drop offs. So, my idea is loops with feeder roads for service buildings and garages. This should increase the efficiency of the garages, allowing fewer of them per loop, as the feeder roads should feed towards the center of the loops. It should also increase the efficiency of service buildings, as the feeder roads provide a queue for drop offs.

I'm trying this strategy out now, and will report back with results. I think I may have done this accidentally once, as I had an island with over 500 peeps and no traffic problems.
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#55
(14-12-2009, 09:51 AM)loverevolutionary Wrote: Okay, here's a quick addition to the concept: put the garages, and any service buildings on feeder roads. This gives a drop-off zone for the service buildings, and a queue for the garage. This will totally outweigh the penalty for an extra intersection, which is actually unrealistically small in this game. In case you haven't noticed, Tropico has an advanced camera based traffic light system which lets a Tropican go full speed through an intersection if there is no one waiting to cross, even on a ninety degree corner.

What slows Tropicans down is stopped cars. Yes, intersections generate stopped cars, but so do drop offs. So, my idea is loops with feeder roads for service buildings and garages. This should increase the efficiency of the garages, allowing fewer of them per loop, as the feeder roads should feed towards the center of the loops. It should also increase the efficiency of service buildings, as the feeder roads provide a queue for drop offs.

I'm trying this strategy out now, and will report back with results. I think I may have done this accidentally once, as I had an island with over 500 peeps and no traffic problems.

Did you ever get around to trying this? If you experienced some success, I would like to take a look at an example. I have been out of town and away from the forums for awhile... so I am trying to catch up.
My first act as El Presidente... Throw the Radio DJ off an oil platform with his feet in cement.
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#56
First off, hats off to you, El Magnificante Presidente FritoPatata for an awesome guide!

I've had the game about 2 weeks now, and gotten through about 3/4s of the game muddling my way through. This is the first sim of it's type that I've actually enjoyed, and your guide is going to help me enjoy it more.

As an aside, one of my favorite games is City of Heroes/Villains and their official forums has a section for guides, which is where I point a lot of the new players I meet. I agree that an official guide section would be a big help. The 1st stickied post in the CoH/V forums is the "Guide to Guides" which lists all the guides by category. Very, very handy to have.
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#57
Thank you for the awesome guide Frito! I found the game to be pretty easy but always had trouble figuring out how to structure my roads to keep traffic down. I guess I was trying too hard. Simple yet effective. Keep up the good work!
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#58
(19-12-2009, 12:08 PM)FiNGERS Wrote: Thank you for the awesome guide Frito! I found the game to be pretty easy but always had trouble figuring out how to structure my roads to keep traffic down. I guess I was trying too hard. Simple yet effective. Keep up the good work!

I think we were all guilty of using to many roads when we first picked up the game. Coming from a city builder background, I figure that more access to roads would actually reduce congestion. In this game the opposite is true, since there is hardly any infrastructure available to help manage traffic flow. You're better of inconveniencing people by making them walk as often as possible in this game, instead of always providing road transport options.
My first act as El Presidente... Throw the Radio DJ off an oil platform with his feet in cement.
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#59
(21-12-2009, 07:42 PM)FritoPatata Wrote: I think we were all guilty of using to many roads when we first picked up the game. Coming from a city builder background, I figure that more access to roads would actually reduce congestion. In this game the opposite is true, since there is hardly any infrastructure available to help manage traffic flow. You're better of inconveniencing people by making them walk as often as possible in this game, instead of always providing road transport options.

I just finished playing the Amish Paradise challenge. That challenge has NO ROADS! So essentially, the strategy was to put everything close together. One can forget about utilizing the Museum since no one works there with the no road limitation. (No need to issue foreign edicts either since one cannot build tenements, apartments, power plants or an airport.) On a side note, I think there is a bug in that challenge because though I had 20 cathedrals, the required number, by December 1979, I still lost when the year turned. Maybe I need 21? Hmmm. It was nostalgic to blast to the past of the T1 roadless system.
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#60
I have started to se a ringroad system, where I put down huge concentric circles of roads and then link them with a thoughroufare to connect then, worked like a dream.
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