Hey there just want to find out if anyone else thinks there are spells that are completly useless or not needed that should be replaced. i only ask this because i found when playing the Empire they have the following:

Holy Cure IV: Heals party : 750hp
Research cost: - Life : 800
Casting cost: - Life : 400

Holy Cure V: Heals party : 1000hp
Research sost: - Life : 3000
- Fire : 2000
- Nature : 1600
Casting cost: - Life : 1500
- Fire : 1000
- Nature : 800

Now does any one else find this absoultley ridiculus? The level 4 heal is really usefull and great cost for it too, than it jumps to the insane, it should at least be a full heal if not cheaper. In hotseat for example, you first have to play mage leader to unlock it anyway even then your better off twin casting level 4 heal???

Useless...

(03-07-2010 07:54 AM)Humanoid Typhoon Wrote:  Hey there just want to find out if anyone else thinks there are spells that are completly useless or not needed that should be replaced. i only ask this because i found when playing the Empire they have the following:

Holy Cure IV: Heals party : 750hp
Research cost: - Life : 800
Casting cost: - Life : 400

Holy Cure V: Heals party : 1000hp
Research sost: - Life : 3000
- Fire : 2000
- Nature : 1600
Casting cost: - Life : 1500
- Fire : 1000
- Nature : 800

Now does any one else find this absoultley ridiculus? The level 4 heal is really usefull and great cost for it too, than it jumps to the insane, it should at least be a full heal if not cheaper. In hotseat for example, you first have to play mage leader to unlock it anyway even then your better off twin casting level 4 heal???

Useless...

Agree, absolutely unbalanced.
Hope they are going to adjust this with the Add-Ons

The spell system in world map is the major unbalancing in this game.
Otherwise everything works OK though

Removing fog of war should have been a HIGHLY expensive building instead of a spell, but I guess it works as it is (though I dont fancy it).
Inflicting 1500 damage before engaging a battle is seriosly unbalanced, since that makes for a certain victory, EVEN if you are fighting the other players main army... I do believe that damage needs to be taken down a notch or TWO!!
Healing before battle is OK, but not inflicting damage... It just disables the use of being tactical on field.
In hotseat for example:
If two friends plays a battle long enough to get those spells, the one player who gets it first WILL win without ANY problems. it dont matter if the other players army is somewhat stronger, the spell makes sure of win.

(03-07-2010 09:50 AM)War-Neck Wrote:  The spell system in world map is the major unbalancing in this game.
Otherwise everything works OK though

Removing fog of war should have been a HIGHLY expensive building instead of a spell, but I guess it works as it is (though I dont fancy it).
Inflicting 1500 damage before engaging a battle is seriosly unbalanced, since that makes for a certain victory, EVEN if you are fighting the other players main army... I do believe that damage needs to be taken down a notch or TWO!!
Healing before battle is OK, but not inflicting damage... It just disables the use of being tactical on field.
In hotseat for example:
If two friends plays a battle long enough to get those spells, the one player who gets it first WILL win without ANY problems. it dont matter if the other players army is somewhat stronger, the spell makes sure of win.

no 1500 damage is ok cause its prue fire if your units have high fire resistances it wont do shit..like my main hero has total 70 fire resistance if you add spell gives 30+ all resist that 100 spell is limited damage then

(03-07-2010 09:50 AM)War-Neck Wrote:  The spell system in world map is the major unbalancing in this game.
Otherwise everything works OK though

Removing fog of war should have been a HIGHLY expensive building instead of a spell, but I guess it works as it is (though I dont fancy it).
Inflicting 1500 damage before engaging a battle is seriosly unbalanced, since that makes for a certain victory, EVEN if you are fighting the other players main army... I do believe that damage needs to be taken down a notch or TWO!!
Healing before battle is OK, but not inflicting damage... It just disables the use of being tactical on field.
In hotseat for example:
If two friends plays a battle long enough to get those spells, the one player who gets it first WILL win without ANY problems. it dont matter if the other players army is somewhat stronger, the spell makes sure of win.

Generally agree with you about the massive potential for unbalancing.
But take into consideration that learning that 1500 dmg spell costs massive amounts of mana and casting it as well which may be used in other ways by the opponent player to get an advantage. In addition, you may cast massive elemental protection (of course, only if you have that type of spell), like +40% elemental protection. Add that up to your unit´s basic elemental protection and that 1500 dmg may be reduced to say 500 dmg. Which is still a lot but not necessarily a guarantee for victory when in such a late stage of the game and the units upgraded accordingly. Don´t disagree with you fundamentally but I think it´s not THAT bad...
Just makes the "initiative factor" on the overland map more important, who gets to see the other hero first and makes the use of scounting heroes mandatory...

I suppose we need to consider the Rune side of things too, as every castable spell can be crafted to a rune...

Again the 5th level spells are a big what if! spending the mana to craft is no where near as good as damaging or healing the entire group.

Levels 1 through 4 though are a different story, summoning 8 elementals at the begining of combat is a very sure (if not annoying for the opponent) way to win, combined with some health regen to see you through the fight, your main troops wont even need to move off the spot they start on.

Mabye limiting the amount of runes (or items in total) may result in some more epic and fun lasting battles?

(03-07-2010 10:14 AM)StupendousMan Wrote:  

(03-07-2010 09:50 AM)War-Neck Wrote:  The spell system in world map is the major unbalancing in this game.
Otherwise everything works OK though

Removing fog of war should have been a HIGHLY expensive building instead of a spell, but I guess it works as it is (though I dont fancy it).
Inflicting 1500 damage before engaging a battle is seriosly unbalanced, since that makes for a certain victory, EVEN if you are fighting the other players main army... I do believe that damage needs to be taken down a notch or TWO!!
Healing before battle is OK, but not inflicting damage... It just disables the use of being tactical on field.
In hotseat for example:
If two friends plays a battle long enough to get those spells, the one player who gets it first WILL win without ANY problems. it dont matter if the other players army is somewhat stronger, the spell makes sure of win.

Generally agree with you about the massive potential for unbalancing.
But take into consideration that learning that 1500 dmg spell costs massive amounts of mana and casting it as well which may be used in other ways by the opponent player to get an advantage. In addition, you may cast massive elemental protection (of course, only if you have that type of spell), like +40% elemental protection. Add that up to your unit´s basic elemental protection and that 1500 dmg may be reduced to say 500 dmg. Which is still a lot but not necessarily a guarantee for victory when in such a late stage of the game and the units upgraded accordingly. Don´t disagree with you fundamentally but I think it´s not THAT bad...
Just makes the "initiative factor" on the overland map more important, who gets to see the other hero first and makes the use of scounting heroes mandatory...

it takes quete sometime for you to cast a that spell if not mistaken its quote expensive! very expensive ,even to cast it..you need 3 types of mana its not something you can cast early stages of the game now if you know your playing against the legions then its ideal to max your stamina/fire resist your heros can easily get over 70% before they have a chance to cast .

we are talkin about the legions here when it comes to healing up damaged units there not so good yes they have awesome 40+ endurance and resistance buff watch i advice you use if you can at all times so truth you never be able to cast it

spells like that to me are waste of resources sense it drains exp you gain for killing mana is better spent on buffing up your squads and healing your army with rubbish

those spells are only used to defense purposes if you know your defenders or citys cannot handle the assault using 1500 damage spell may stop there assault

(03-07-2010 10:14 AM)StupendousMan Wrote:  Generally agree with you about the massive potential for unbalancing.
But take into consideration that learning that 1500 dmg spell costs massive amounts of mana and casting it as well which may be used in other ways by the opponent player to get an advantage. In addition, you may cast massive elemental protection (of course, only if you have that type of spell), like +40% elemental protection. Add that up to your unit´s basic elemental protection and that 1500 dmg may be reduced to say 500 dmg. Which is still a lot but not necessarily a guarantee for victory when in such a late stage of the game and the units upgraded accordingly. Don´t disagree with you fundamentally but I think it´s not THAT bad...
Just makes the "initiative factor" on the overland map more important, who gets to see the other hero first and makes the use of scounting heroes mandatory...

What you are saying is true, but its almost impossible to learn all spells, so if a player is smart he waits for that exact massive damaging spell and then just hurls it at an enemy player (collects all the necessary mana). Now, the oppponent propably learned that spell as well, before learning other spells. So the chance he has already learned "+40% elemental protection" (as well) is not big. but say that he did. He wouldnt know when to use it, unless the opponent player has been spotted, BUT then he would instead hurl the major damage spell instead (instead of giving his troops elemental protection). Also even the low damaging spells are unbalanced if the map is small and you face eachother early. Why summon a living armor when the damaging spell is so MUCH more efficient? The damaging spells inflicts "****" to ALL units. It doesnt even divide the damage if im not mistaken?

OK, I tried to explain but I just suck at it I get your point, I do. But I still believe the damage nullifies the battle system directly. And I would have thought the battle system should have had the most important role in terms of damage, not ONE simple spell (even though it costs major mana, the player can be smart to collect it early from start, such as me). The runes (in terms of damage) also are silly, since its better to infllict "250" (for example) damage instead of attacking with unit/leader.

PS: This could be resolved by banning such spells against other players and computer controlled teams. And only allow it agaisnt neutral stacks of units...

---

IF it is early in the game... Someone will blast a lower damaging spell AND render the other players army useless since he will not be able to heal himself before an attack (probably).
Early units have top life of 900. (and those units are expensive as hell).
For example the elven riders (elven lancers) have health of 320... They wouldnt stand a chance after that spell damage.
no matter how we twist and turn in tactical views, the damaging spells AND runes are VERY unbalanced, in early fights as well in later ones.

EDIT: As "Humanoid Typhoon" mentioned "epic and fun lasting battles".
Those do not exist with this spell system...

While I can follow the logic and arguments of everybody here and basically agree with most what has been said I still don´t see it as such a big problem. I mean, creating a rune costs as much as learning the spell right from the start, so it is pretty expensive and if your opponent plays skillfully you won´t have as much mana in surplus as to be able to create 8 or so summon runes or such because he will keep you under pressure with his mana he is spending on other types of spells that you are saving for the summon runes or may even have killed you already by then.
I guess things may look similar during combat, if you "forfeit" your first, let´s say, 6-8 turns for casting summons your opponent may have decimated your troop already substantially in terms of HP or numbers or crucial characters.
I guess I don´t have that much multiplayer experience with D3/D2 but am looking forward to it once we maybe have online play. I foresee there will be probably a counter-strategy/tactics for nearly every case that has been mentioned here.

Another easy solution (for future custom-made maps): make mana of all types very scarce (i always do, makes the weaving of magic much more seldom and "miraculous" and guarantees more intense battles)

(03-07-2010 12:51 PM)StupendousMan Wrote:  While I can follow the logic and argument of everybody here and agree with most what has been said I still don´t see it as such a big problem. I mean, creating a rune costs as much as learning the spell from the start, so it is pretty expensive and if your opponent plays skillfully you won´t have as much mana in surplus as to be able to create 8 summon runes or such because he will have killed you with his damage spells by then.
Another easy solution (for future custom-made maps): make mana of all types very scarce (i always do, makes the weaving of magic much more seldom and a miracle and guarantees more intense battles)

Custom maps are one thing, but the campaign and current multiplayer maps lack the challenge and diversity of a custom build. So at the minute you are gathering obscene amounts of resources with no need for them. But still, having the lovely new tactical battle map means nothing when your healers and mages are killed before the fight starts and your enemy is casting overpowerd runes and running around the edge of the battle map staying out of reach of you infantry. It just seems too unbalanced at the moment. Mabye we will see some big changes in the add-ons mabye not. These are just my points of view but im sure there are some out there who agree.

(03-07-2010 01:18 PM)Humanoid Typhoon Wrote:  

(03-07-2010 12:51 PM)StupendousMan Wrote:  While I can follow the logic and argument of everybody here and agree with most what has been said I still don´t see it as such a big problem. I mean, creating a rune costs as much as learning the spell from the start, so it is pretty expensive and if your opponent plays skillfully you won´t have as much mana in surplus as to be able to create 8 summon runes or such because he will have killed you with his damage spells by then.
Another easy solution (for future custom-made maps): make mana of all types very scarce (i always do, makes the weaving of magic much more seldom and a miracle and guarantees more intense battles)

Custom maps are one thing, but the campaign and current multiplayer maps lack the challenge and diversity of a custom build. So at the minute you are gathering obscene amounts of resources with no need for them. But still, having the lovely new tactical battle map means nothing when your healers and mages are killed before the fight starts and your enemy is casting overpowerd runes and running around the edge of the battle map staying out of reach of you infantry. It just seems too unbalanced at the moment. Mabye we will see some big changes in the add-ons mabye not. These are just my points of view but im sure there are some out there who agree.

Agree, makes the "initiative" on the overland map a crucial factor I think.
Scouting heroes, summons for scouting, cautious exploration etc.

Note: Edited my previous post while you were replying, so the quotation differs...

It definitely depends on map, and that is an issue in itself.
For example, think huge, HUGE maps (the maps I believe are funny, when it takes at least 44 hours before seeing another player), and then realize that when playing against neutral stacks of enemies you dont really need to use magic at all (using instead runes and potions that you FIND for FREE). So when you finally reach your player opponent (friend or whatever), you already have so much magic/mana that if you see him first, WELL, then he will LOOSE big time. Without the need to play in a battle (only to finish of his troops with high health. All the mages and such will be dead leaving him, useless in a battle (preety much).
With the spell system that is now in effect, the one who spots the player FIRST wins... Not really balanced in my opinion.
Theres a difference between getting an upperhand AND complete victory.

But to clarify what I mostly mean is this... Even if you both throw spells at eachother and then attack, its going to mean that the battle will only take 5 minutes instead of 20 minutes... Just kinda boring battles. Its still unbalanced, and kinda bad gameplay with spells, AT THE MOMENT.

EDIT: Its not just unbalance but also renders the battle-system useless (in the end of a game especially). I would ban damaging spells if I could

(03-07-2010 04:02 PM)War-Neck Wrote:  It definitely depends on map, and that is an issue in itself.
For example, think huge, HUGE maps (the maps I believe are funny, when it takes at least 44 hours before seeing another player), and then realize that when playing against neutral stacks of enemies you dont really need to use magic at all (using instead runes and potions that you FIND for FREE). So when you finally reach your player opponent (friend or whatever), you already have so much magic/mana that if you see him first, WELL, then he will LOOSE big time.

That is what I was trying to say, if you play about 44 hours before seeing the enemy, I guess it will be normal and necessary to have several(!) secondary heroes (3-5) that are the avantguard and scout the area in front of your main hero in order not to fall easy prey to a massive magic spell attack.
The map type I am going to make once the editor and all factions are available will be like that and will probably provide very high income to the players so that you will have several high level stacks/army groups to duke it out and move/fight strategically in the mother of all battles so that it will take at least(!) 20 min to determine the victor (and you will probably be able to replace your losses and bring in at least medium-level stacks as reinforcements).
See and agree to your point though.