First, a question to the devs: Will Tropico 4 lose any buildings that have been in T3 or were added in Absolute Power?

I would oppose this, as I think everything has its use, and if anything the existing slate of buildings should be improved with their effects or customizability (via upgrades or new modes...which I think/hope is the case).

That said, a question to the forum: Are there any buildings you would love to see get the axe in T4?

A lot of the cheap housing options like block/bunk? house, I think it's called. They don't seem to fulfill much at all if you compare the cost of building one vs housing quality and the amount of families it can contain compared to say, tenements/apartments.

All others buildings I do think have a purpose, but some of them could be reworked a bit to add more (e.g. beautifications).

Agreed LeaT.

I often wonder if anybody uses all the sub-par housing at all considering your best bet for population is Tenement -> Apartment -> Condo. I'll occasionally throw up a Bunkhouse or Country House by an isolated Mine or Fisherman's Wharf to accommodate the few workers there, but other than that they seem to be of little use, especially the Shanty.

I'd support 1 or 2 of these getting the axe in favour of more effective housing or other buildings.

Also, I think it would be cool/practical for multiple shacks to form barrios or shanty towns, which would change their appearance or create real consequences. Rather than have tons of very similar looking shacks side-by-side, have them form together to create vast shanty barrios which would increase crime or trash buildup accordingly.

I opine that if you think there are useless cheap housing options, either the game is giving you too much money to fool away, or you are not playing on the more difficult settings.

The Shanty is a good addition which allows you to control placement of what would otherwise be shacks.

(15-03-2011 02:39 PM)CoconutKid Wrote:  The Shanty is a good addition which allows you to control placement of what would otherwise be shacks.

I think that building is far too large for the extremely small amount it holds. now if they made it house 8-12 peps.....

(16-03-2011 11:14 PM)computertech Wrote:  

(15-03-2011 02:39 PM)CoconutKid Wrote:  The Shanty is a good addition which allows you to control placement of what would otherwise be shacks.

I think that building is far too large for the extremely small amount it holds. now if they made it house 8-12 peps.....

I think that would make it a bit crowded. I certainly think that tenements,apartments and condos need their capacity increased, or at least be linked with building size, such that the larger tenements would have 12 or 24 people occupancy, apartments 6 or 12 and condos 4 or 8. Of course increased size would cost more in initial build cost, but would be [b]slightly[/b] cheaper in terms of maintenance/tenant & build cost/tenant, because of the savings on wires and pipes as well as heating/cooling insulation.

Mansions and houses on the other hand should hold 1 family. Country houses are oki as they stand now.

(15-03-2011 02:39 PM)CoconutKid Wrote:  I opine that if you think there are useless cheap housing options, either the game is giving you too much money to fool away, or you are not playing on the more difficult settings.

The Shanty is a good addition which allows you to control placement of what would otherwise be shacks.

Unless you play on a map where you mostly rely on tourism and beauty matters (shacks lowers beauty by quite an amount) I don't see how this matters? I'm rather able to instantly build something else over those shacks than having to wait for my construction builders to demolish the shanties and then being able to build.

Quote:I think that would make it a bit crowded. I certainly think that tenements,apartments and condos need their capacity increased, or at least be linked with building size, such that the larger tenements would have 12 or 24 people occupancy, apartments 6 or 12 and condos 4 or 8. Of course increased size would cost more in initial build cost, but would be slightly cheaper in terms of maintenance/tenant & build cost/tenant, because of the savings on wires and pipes as well as heating/cooling insulation.

I would like to be able to build rows like in Grand Ages: Rome. Only appliable to tenements/apartments/condos.

(17-03-2011 04:39 AM)Dr. Archibald Wrote:  

(16-03-2011 11:14 PM)computertech Wrote:  

(15-03-2011 02:39 PM)CoconutKid Wrote:  The Shanty is a good addition which allows you to control placement of what would otherwise be shacks.

I think that building is far too large for the extremely small amount it holds. now if they made it house 8-12 peps.....

I think that would make it a bit crowded. I certainly think that tenements,apartments and condos need their capacity increased, or at least be linked with building size, such that the larger tenements would have 12 or 24 people occupancy, apartments 6 or 12 and condos 4 or 8. Of course increased size would cost more in initial build cost, but would be [b]slightly[/b] cheaper in terms of maintenance/tenant & build cost/tenant, because of the savings on wires and pipes as well as heating/cooling insulation.

Mansions and houses on the other hand should hold 1 family. Country houses are oki as they stand now.

This is Tropico. Heating/cooling, water and wires? What planet are you on?

I would like to see apartment/tenement/condo scale-ups though. It would be nice to cram all the poor people into a smaller area. And you would not need to build 200 apartments.

On the flip side, you'd be screwed even harder in natural disasters. Tenements already collapse like card houses (I'll have like 5 and loose 3 of them more often than not), so this could go both ways. Building a massive apartment scale-up may cost say, 2/3 of the current structure per occupancy. But if collapses, you're screwed.

(17-03-2011 09:05 PM)IronFist Wrote:  

(17-03-2011 04:39 AM)Dr. Archibald Wrote:  

(16-03-2011 11:14 PM)computertech Wrote:  

(15-03-2011 02:39 PM)CoconutKid Wrote:  The Shanty is a good addition which allows you to control placement of what would otherwise be shacks.

I think that building is far too large for the extremely small amount it holds. now if they made it house 8-12 peps.....

I think that would make it a bit crowded. I certainly think that tenements,apartments and condos need their capacity increased, or at least be linked with building size, such that the larger tenements would have 12 or 24 people occupancy, apartments 6 or 12 and condos 4 or 8. Of course increased size would cost more in initial build cost, but would be [b]slightly[/b] cheaper in terms of maintenance/tenant & build cost/tenant, because of the savings on wires and pipes as well as heating/cooling insulation.

Mansions and houses on the other hand should hold 1 family. Country houses are oki as they stand now.

This is Tropico. Heating/cooling, water and wires? What planet are you on?

I would like to see apartment/tenement/condo scale-ups though. It would be nice to cram all the poor people into a smaller area. And you would not need to build 200 apartments.

On the flip side, you'd be screwed even harder in natural disasters. Tenements already collapse like card houses (I'll have like 5 and loose 3 of them more often than not), so this could go both ways. Building a massive apartment scale-up may cost say, 2/3 of the current structure per occupancy. But if collapses, you're screwed.

The cost savings have to due with the heatsaving/cold saving effects of the physical structure (the insulation is greater than having a bunch of seperated houses). You also save on the wiring and pipes between houses, given the distance between living spaces is shorter in apartments.

(17-03-2011 09:05 PM)IronFist Wrote:  

(17-03-2011 04:39 AM)Dr. Archibald Wrote:  

(16-03-2011 11:14 PM)computertech Wrote:  

(15-03-2011 02:39 PM)CoconutKid Wrote:  The Shanty is a good addition which allows you to control placement of what would otherwise be shacks.

I think that building is far too large for the extremely small amount it holds. now if they made it house 8-12 peps.....

I think that would make it a bit crowded. I certainly think that tenements,apartments and condos need their capacity increased, or at least be linked with building size, such that the larger tenements would have 12 or 24 people occupancy, apartments 6 or 12 and condos 4 or 8. Of course increased size would cost more in initial build cost, but would be [b]slightly[/b] cheaper in terms of maintenance/tenant & build cost/tenant, because of the savings on wires and pipes as well as heating/cooling insulation.

Mansions and houses on the other hand should hold 1 family. Country houses are oki as they stand now.

This is Tropico. Heating/cooling, water and wires? What planet are you on?

I would like to see apartment/tenement/condo scale-ups though. It would be nice to cram all the poor people into a smaller area. And you would not need to build 200 apartments.

On the flip side, you'd be screwed even harder in natural disasters. Tenements already collapse like card houses (I'll have like 5 and loose 3 of them more often than not), so this could go both ways. Building a massive apartment scale-up may cost say, 2/3 of the current structure per occupancy. But if collapses, you're screwed.

Considering that they are adding the feature to make disasters more interactive and a lot of people have suggested some kind of ministry that allows for disaster adaption/mitigation, I don't see it would be that such of a big deal. Let's say your island is struck by an earthquake - yeah, buildings would fall like bricks but only if you did not invest into the edict that strengthens your buildings against earthquakes. It doesn't mean earthquakes will not have an effect, but the chance they will is significantly reduced. Also thinking they could add something like they had in Theme Hospital where the game could generate different strengths of the earthquakes according to the Richter scale. The more severe, the worse the damage.

The point i was trying to make about the shanty is it's well beyond 4x the size of a shack, but yet holds just as little as a shack. The santy is only a little better then a shack, being 4x the size, should hold 4x the people. It's suppose to be crowded, hense the low rating.
If the shanty was changed to hold much more for it's size, it could the be used to try to control shacks from popping up. little less crime and polution.

shanty definatly could use a change.. just making this building about 1/3 the size,, say just a tiny bit smaller than a country house would be perfect. OR up occupacy to be 3-4 families


to me bunk houses are perfect, i use them often in early game. great way to get some early housing to keep polution from shacks down if you dont wanna go the tenement/appartment route


I love the idea tealeaf had about making rows.. (attaching them) for ten/app/condo. could really add a lot to island design.

Meh, I guess it boils down a bit to playstyle. I really don't like those low quality buildings because I care a lot about the aesthetics of my island. Having to tear down buildings later in the game is a kind of annoyance to me, I just rather do the proper layout I planned from the beginning even if it means that a shiteload have to be homeless for 20 years (never really had any issues with crime and pollution, just build trees and parks everywhere and people are happy anyway). This would be simplified a lot if we could upgrade buildings to have a better quality, and I feel it would make the building a lot more dynamic too.

I don't think they should remove any buildings. They should adjust the size of some of the buildings (i.e. bunk houses larger and shacks smaller).

(08-04-2011 06:41 AM)TimB Wrote:  I don't think they should remove any buildings. They should adjust the size of some of the buildings (i.e. bunk houses larger and shacks smaller).

I think it's pretty save to say t4 is REALLY t3 with add-ons. therefore no buildings removed. If you look at the pics from t4, you'll think your really looking at a t3 screenshot instead, just with some extra buildings.

I'm hoping the size of the newspaper is reduced. That thing is a beast

(09-04-2011 01:44 AM)Jack88 Wrote:  I'm hoping the size of the newspaper is reduced. That thing is a beast

Haha agreed. Far too huge if you ask me.

I'm very happy they trimmed down the garages in T3:AP so I'm sure it wouldn't be much trouble to do the same here.

I've never personally used the prison... not even sure what it does. I wouldn't say remove it, but maybe make a purpose for it.

(22-04-2011 06:15 PM)astondb9 Wrote:  I've never personally used the prison... not even sure what it does. I wouldn't say remove it, but maybe make a purpose for it.

STEP ONE : click on a citizen
STEP TWO : order arrest
STEP THREE : Policeman brings him to prison
STEP FOUR : Make money ( forced labor )

(22-04-2011 06:15 PM)astondb9 Wrote:  I've never personally used the prison -- not even sure what it does. ...

It is a place to re-educate and re-direct those who are so stupid as to oppose your illustrious self. It can become very expensive to assassinate all of such stupid people. When they come out of your prison "rehabilation" program, they are much more docile workers.

---

(22-04-2011 07:00 PM)Che Guevara Wrote:  ... STEP FOUR : Make money ( forced labor )

Do the accounting and you will find that the "forced labor" option doesn't even break even with the overhead of the guards' pay and the building maintenance.

(22-04-2011 07:07 PM)CoconutKid Wrote:  

(22-04-2011 06:15 PM)astondb9 Wrote:  I've never personally used the prison -- not even sure what it does. ...

It is a place to re-educate and re-direct those who are so stupid as to oppose your illustrious self. It can become very expensive to assassinate all of such stupid people. When they come out of your prison "rehabilation" program, they are much more docile workers.

---

(22-04-2011 07:00 PM)Che Guevara Wrote:  ... STEP FOUR : Make money ( forced labor )

Do the accounting and you will find that the "forced labor" option doesn't even break even with the overhead of the guards' pay and the building maintenance.

Ok but it is still worth mentioning.

(22-04-2011 07:07 PM)CoconutKid Wrote:  It is a place to re-educate and re-direct those who are so stupid as to oppose your illustrious self. It can become very expensive to assassinate all of such stupid people. When they come out of your prison "rehabilation" program, they are much more docile workers.

Coco do you find it easy to track the moods of so many dissidents easily enough to have them arrested and "re-educated"?

I feel much the same way as others, in that I often focus on the "macro" demands of factions and my economy rather than holding individual Tropicans under the microscope for jail time, bribes or assassination. Because of this, I see the Prison as relatively useless and costly and almost never build it.

As I've mentioned before, I think an overhaul of crime & punishment in Tropico is needed, where it isn't an arbitrary "red blob" on the map, but rather actual acts of theft, assault, arson, murder, etc. committed by Tropicans on their fellow citizens. It should be visible in-game and evidenced by graffiti or smashed up homes/shops and unsavoury looking Tropicans who loiter in certain areas. A well-trained police force should visibly apprehend the crooks and cart them off to prison (if you have one) for re-education or forced labour, otherwise they are taken to the station and fined and released (therefore encouraging us players to build prisons).

Of course El Prez should keep his ability to lock-up Tropicans at will, who will join other criminals in "the pen" to serve time as political prisoners.

My point: Keep Prisons but fix crime and punishment in Tropico 4!

(26-04-2011 08:46 PM)Maximo Wrote:  Coco do you find it easy to track the moods of so many dissidents easily enough to have them arrested and "re-educated"? ...

First -- I was merely answering a poster who said they didn't know what the purpose of the building was.

Second -- I believe the Almanac or something in the interface provides a running count of protesters. There is a "tipping point" (which I can't specify) at which a handful of intermittent protesters grows into a large mob and turns into an uprising - attacking the seat of power. At some point before the number of protesters grows to that "tipping point" - but beyond a mere handful, the player needs either to remove the cause(s) of protests or to start arresting 'influencial' protesters.

Ahhh ok. And how do you discover which ones are the most influential? I just generally find I don't take the time to flick through the info cards of individual Tropicans as often as I'd like to hunt for the malicious ones...although I'm sure, like you say, doing so can have a big impact on the size/frequency of protests.

And I hope you didn't take my comment as a slight. Like I said, I wish I could check out individual peeps more regularly but find I get caught up in the larger scale issues.

(27-04-2011 04:26 PM)Maximo Wrote:  ... And how do you discover which ones are the most influential? I just generally find I don't take the time to flick through the info cards of individual Tropicans ...

Remember, I'm guessing at what you see in T3 by interpolating from T1.

First, while zoomed out somewhat, you sweep over the main populated areas looking for individuals with the "protest icon" floating over their heads -- may be done while paused.

Second, for those who have that icon -- check their one "card" that shows their levels of leadership & courage (the 'skills' card ?). If they are high in both, they need a political reeducation so they will be less inclined to protest.

Third, if you have large numbers of protesters (more than five at once or more than 20 total in a year) -- you need to pause the game while a number are active and check their thoughts in addition to their leadership & courage. That way you can gain a better understanding of what you are missing as you "get caught up in the larger scale issues."

---

Even though I do not wish to engage in a long exchange, I do feel the need to make a relatively brief comment on your suggestion for an "overhaul of crime & punishment" to raise ordinary crime from an abstraction to an active feature of gameplay.

Your conception of creating "actual acts of theft, assault, arson, murder, etc. committed by Tropicans on their fellow citizens ... visible in-game and evidenced by graffiti or smashed up homes/shops and unsavoury looking Tropicans who loiter in certain areas" with automatic follow-up by a police force, is an absolutely huge game development set of tasks. It seems the net result would be a player decision about building jails (and perhaps the police force).

The coding phase of development would involve among other things:

• Adding a "criminal card" to the structure of each person unit
• Adding a new avatar - Full Time Criminal
• Structuring the tasks, events, triggers, and structure for the new in-game activity.
  

The art work for animation for the visibility of all this new activity probably would be considered to be a significant task by the managers of the development work -- depending on the level of realism.

As the game was initially conceived and exists, common person-on-person crime is at an abstract level while political crime is visible and a significant component of gameplay. Is there a real need for the suggested change in gameplay, or is it just to add some interesting movies to gameplay?

(28-04-2011 03:39 PM)CoconutKid Wrote:  Your conception of creating "actual acts of theft, assault, arson, murder, etc. committed by Tropicans on their fellow citizens ... visible in-game and evidenced by graffiti or smashed up homes/shops and unsavoury looking Tropicans who loiter in certain areas" with automatic follow-up by a police force, is an absolutely huge game development set of tasks. It seems the net result would be a player decision about building jails (and perhaps the police force).

The coding phase of development would involve among other things:

• Adding a "criminal card" to the structure of each person unit
• Adding a new avatar - Full Time Criminal
• Structuring the tasks, events, triggers, and structure for the new in-game activity.
  

The art work for animation for the visibility of all this new activity probably would be considered to be a significant task by the managers of the development work -- depending on the level of realism.

As the game was initially conceived and exists, common person-on-person crime is at an abstract level while political crime is visible and a significant component of gameplay. Is there a real need for the suggested change in gameplay, or is it just to add some interesting movies to gameplay?

Agreed.

Thanks for the details CocoKid.

And hey, I didn't say it would be easy to overhaul crime but I do believe it would provide an enhanced gameplay experience both on a visual level (more avatars, more events, more visible representation of how your society is doing [crime & decay vs. cleanliness & justice], etc.) as well as on a practical level of obliging players to factor in/account for/respond to crime with adequate spending and infrastructure on police, prisons and the like (unlike now, where crime is almost a non-issue and is essentially "solved" after building a cop shop).

Crime & punishment, if re-worked, could also have a cascading effect and impact on many other aspects of the Tropico experience including:
- Criminal activity increases/decreases with rebel activity
- Criminal activity increases/decreases with how "corrupt" El Prez is (ie. in relation to megalomaniac edicts or size of swiss bank account)
- Tourism rises or falls in certain areas depending on crime, as well as affecting overall tourism rating
- Need for medical attention increases/decreases based on crime
- Religion/morality/education of Tropico impacts crime rate (more spiritual/educated = less criminals)
etc.

I think there is plenty of opportunity for this aspect of the game to have a profound impact on the overall Tropico experience. It wouldn't be easy to implement or program and it definitely isn't realistic at this late stage (unless they've been working on it all along)...but I think it'd be worth it.

maximo..

check almanac.. look for unhappy people.. then click on them while you have the bottom area checked for happiness.. see where people are low.

then you can click on thoughts, see if they are complaining about things. If so, what? like lack of liberty means they are afraid to protest. which can increase the chance of someone going rebel

you can also check leadership.. I dont have any hard facts on this one, But i assume, that if someone with high leadership is protesting, there is a greater likely hood of an unhappy person near by flipping to rebel.

so jailing them, of giving them a better house or job, or even a bribe can help.


But i totally agree, id love to see more active crime.. watching purse snatching, break ins.. cops pulling over jaywalkers.. ext.. it could really add to the games fun. I want more of everything.. more sim like, more unique flavor of tropicans, and more envoirnemental reflection of how the world is..

I dont just wanna see a bunch of green arrows over peoples heads to know im doing well, I want to see it by looking at the island..

things like trash building up in slums, or homeless on the streats, seeing people turn into crooks.. (new form of rebels) perhaps even gangs..

there is a huge opertunity to really expand the game.

I found an older interview that said every building in T3 and the expansion would appear, but that there would be some changes, especially the tourist ones. I think making Tourism a viable economic tool would really add a nice dimension. Between that in the importing from multiple regions, you'd have a variety of options to manage your island.

Oh you just reminded me Tropi'je, I want an edict that slums are illegal so they get bull dozed

---

Oh you just reminded me Tropi'je, I want an edict that slums are illegal so they get bull dozed