Alright here it goes.

Tropico 3 had many interesting needs and desires that can be filled in unique and interesting ways. But by far, the most annoying, least creative and just plain blandest is Religion.

Sure, there were many ways to increase the religious citizen count, or their respective happiness, but it all really counted for naught. Simply put: you can't run an economy off the religious. It isn't possible. It would seem to make sense that having many religious people and edicts etc could lead to a very large, very easy to please demographic that makes elections disgustingly simple, but that seems to be the only real benefit. I think religion can very easily have a part that benefits the country outside of religious satisfaction.

Here is my idea: charitable donations.

This would have two edicts attached to it.
edict 1) Allow donations (requires church)
At a moderate cost, it allows churchs to start taking donations, allowing the following options. donations are dependent on the religious satisfaction and income of a tropican, plus the experience of the preacher. (maybe 1-3 bucks a farmer, not too much)
Option a) Homes for the homeless. Lets homeless citizens sleep in the church basement for free. More money means more people can live there. Housing quality is definitely sub-optimal.
Option b) Food for the Hungry. The church will provide food for the hungry masses. The food appears from nowhere, and is limitless, but is rather expensive so is not a long term solution.

This helps with early game significantly, and gives a decent reason to build an early church. It's not sustainable however, so it could only be used as a temporary benefit.

edict 2) Match donations (requires allow donations). Presidente matches the donations of the citizens. He can do this through the treassury (religious like, all others dislike especially the intellectuals) or through his swiss bank account (all except loyalists like), which also gives another purpose to the SBA. Allows more options
Option c) Church subsidy: a portion of donated money goes towards the construction of a new church or cathedral. This really eases the 22000 asking price.
Option d) Foreign aid: send missionaries (HS educated citizens) to help build schools, homes and churches in poverty stricken countries. All but nationalists like, and foreign powers love this (particularly Europe).
Option e) Right and wrong pamphlet: Firstly, this has a chance to turn passive or moderate religious tropicans to being highly religious. Secondly, his provides information to church going citizens, persuading them to follow religiously oriented edicts/ideas without having to purchase the edict yourself. Highly Religious members won't use contriception, drink alcohol, have gay marriages or anything else along those lines. The religious faction ignores the negatives of allowing alcohol, contraceptives and gay marriage.
Option f) Pay for Mobile priests: priests can be hired to go around giving a dose of religion to whoever needs them, without having the citizens lug themselves into a hot and sweaty church. This means people are spending more time at work.

Options d and e are dangerous however: d makes you lose valuable educated workers and e has rising costs as your island grows and becomes bigger (more donations for presidente to match).


Here's the cool part: The more people attend church, the more they donate and the better these benefits get. The first ones will be useful for everyone as an option early game booster that doesn't annoy the nationalists. The latter ones really help your politics and economics. This actually makes running a highly religious inquisition country actually possible. It also makes a church into somewhat of a strategic choice other than "people won't stop whining, let's build them a church".

i think this is a pretty good idea for people who want to expand on the religious part of the game, not for me however, i don't build a single church and outlaw the religious faction as soon as i can

I don't bother building churches so I won't vote. Anyway,good idea.

Great ideas Fetyukov!

I agree completely that the Church is entirely an annoyance and serves no societal benefit other than existing to be appeased (not to mention costing El Presidente's regime a boatload of cash and educated workers). I like the breakdown of your ideas and I'm sure there's even more you could add to give the Church/Religious Faction/religious Tropicans more of an impact.

One thing I think could be very interesting for the series (perhaps in an expansion for T4) is the addition of other religions (beyond Christianity/Catholicism). It would be a real challenge to balance the demands of, say, a minority Muslim, Buddhist or Hindu population on Tropico.

(21-06-2011 02:25 PM)Maximo Wrote:  I agree completely that the Church is entirely an annoyance and serves no societal benefit other than existing to be appeased (not to mention costing El Presidente's regime a boatload of cash and educated workers). ... One thing I think could be very interesting for the series (perhaps in an expansion for T4) is the addition of other religions (beyond Christianity/Catholicism). It would be a real challenge to balance the demands of, say, a minority Muslim, Buddhist or Hindu population on Tropico.

It's not hard to conclude that you really wish to strip the game of any semblance of a simulation. What world do you live in where religion has no impact on people's lives?

You seem to wish a game world in which your economy is the only center of gameplay.

Although it would make an entire fantasy world and would probably be a game on which many players would dote, it would be entirely divorced from any Caribbean Island in any time frame.

One possibility which might be connected with gameplay is an alternative wherein the player could try to make his control of religious institutions both self-supporting and a consistent boost to happiness. A religious building would be credited with 1\10 of a citizen's monthly pay (rounded down, including zero) per visit and the buildings would be opened to tourists for sight-seeing with a credit of their full attraction spending limit.

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It's interesting that so many posters seem to be totally anti-religious.

Perhaps Kalypso needs to consider the development of a game which allows players to focus on destroying religion. Perhaps a Roman Era Game about searching out Christians to throw to horrible deaths in the Arenas whilst promoting the worship of Vesta through her Vestal Virgins.

I think that would be popular among gameplayers - especially Xbox fans. Blood and gore with a side dish of sex. Fantastic sweet.

Well I'm very anti-religious myself, but that doesn't mean it can't be a unique gameplay element, rather than what it is today (building it because I have to).

Many people don't build churches and outlaw the factions, as they have stated, but don't you think changes like his could make a theocracy viable?

How about running a country filled with nationalists, and starting a strong economy with foreign aid, humanitarian aid and open doors are difficult. Church's here can step in and take some of the pressure off.

Pretend for a minute that this isn't a church, but a Tropican city hall meeting that everyone must attend regularly. Instead of building more pretty meeting rooms, wouldn't you like for them to do charity work and donate money to a cause?

Think of it from a gameplaypoint of view, and maybe if these options were in, you wouldn't automatically ban religion on every island.

It's interesting that so many posters seem to be totally anti-religious



CK,I have to disagree with you. It is true most people find religious faction annoying ( me included ) but that doesn't mean we hate religious persons. Ok I sometimes shoot them in game but I would never do that in real life. They are hard to please you can't deny it.

(21-06-2011 06:29 PM)CoconutKid Wrote:  It's not hard to conclude that you really wish to strip the game of any semblance of a simulation. What world do you live in where religion has no impact on people's lives?

You seem to wish a game world in which your economy is the only center of gameplay.

Although it would make an entire fantasy world and would probably be a game on which many players would dote, it would be entirely divorced from any Caribbean Island in any time frame.

One possibility which might be connected with gameplay is an alternative wherein the player could try to make his control of religious institutions both self-supporting and a consistent boost to happiness. A religious building would be credited with 1\10 of a citizen's monthly pay (rounded down, including zero) per visit and the buildings would be opened to tourists for sight-seeing with a credit of their full attraction spending limit.

---

It's interesting that so many posters seem to be totally anti-religious.

Perhaps Kalypso needs to consider the development of a game which allows players to focus on destroying religion. Perhaps a Roman Era Game about searching out Christians to throw to horrible deaths in the Arenas whilst promoting the worship of Vesta through her Vestal Virgins.

I think that would be popular among gameplayers - especially Xbox fans. Blood and gore with a side dish of sex. Fantastic sweet.

I think you missed it there Coconut, but my comments were entirely about religion as it impacts the gameplay of Tropico 3, and had nothing whatsoever to do with my personal thoughts on the institution.

(21-06-2011 08:09 PM)Fetyukov Wrote:  Well I'm very anti-religious myself, but that doesn't mean it can't be a unique gameplay element, rather than what it is today (building it because I have to).

Many people don't build churches and outlaw the factions, as they have stated, but don't you think changes like his could make a theocracy viable?

How about running a country filled with nationalists, and starting a strong economy with foreign aid, humanitarian aid and open doors are difficult. Church's here can step in and take some of the pressure off.

Pretend for a minute that this isn't a church, but a Tropican city hall meeting that everyone must attend regularly. Instead of building more pretty meeting rooms, wouldn't you like for them to do charity work and donate money to a cause?

Think of it from a gameplaypoint of view, and maybe if these options were in, you wouldn't automatically ban religion on every island.

Thank you Fetyukov, my point exactly. The Church, as it exists in T3 now, has zero positive impact on how you choose to play; rather it is a necessity for you to build Churches/Cathedrals and appease your whiny religious Tropicans.

Honestly, I can't get through the first 15 minutes of any T3 game without people yelping for a Church to be built. It ain't cheap, it eats up all my early educated workers and it doesn't do anything to 'boost' my society. (Sure, say all you will about how "meaningful" it is in people lives and such, but in Tropcio you don't see the impact of appeasing the religious faction.)

All I'm saying is it'd be great to see the Church have more tools to actually impact gameplay, rather than just being a requirement to build. Fetyukov's "Homes for the Homeless"...where early bums can crash in Church basements...is a perfect example of giving the Church a role to play in your society.

(22-06-2011 10:10 PM)Maximo Wrote:  

(21-06-2011 06:29 PM)CoconutKid Wrote:  ... One possibility which might be connected with gameplay is an alternative wherein the player could try to make his control of religious institutions both self-supporting and a consistent boost to happiness. A religious building would be credited with 1\10 of a citizen's monthly pay (rounded down, including zero) per visit and the buildings would be opened to tourists for sight-seeing with a credit of their full attraction spending limit. ...

I think you missed it there Coconut, but my comments were entirely about religion as it impacts the gameplay of Tropico 3, and had nothing whatsoever to do with my personal thoughts on the institution.
... The Church, as it exists in T3 now, has zero positive impact on how you choose to play; rather it is a necessity for you to build Churches/Cathedrals and appease your whiny religious Tropicans.

Honestly, I can't get through the first 15 minutes of any T3 game without people yelping for a Church to be built. ... it doesn't do anything to 'boost' my society. (Sure, say all you will about how "meaningful" it is in people lives and such, but in Tropcio you don't see the impact of appeasing the religious faction.)

All I'm saying is it'd be great to see the Church have more tools to actually impact gameplay, rather than just being a requirement to build. ...

I'm sorry, but I just can't grasp what you are trying to say about "gameplay." O.K. - no one is carrying over their "real-life" stance into the game.

Please, exactly what form does this "Yelping (whining) for churches" take? 'Voice Over' stuff from the advisor or the radio loud-mouth? Is 'gameplay' knee-jerk response to in-game, 'active help' prompts or something else? Or is the 'Yelping' the appearance of a mob of protesters forming an organized blockage of something; is the faction that strong?

Whatever the 'Yelping' is, what happens when you ignore it?

Please clarify for me, don't all the people (citizens) have a need (urgent desire) for religious satisfaction - not just the supporters of the religious faction? What happens to the people whose religious desire is in the "red" zone with no way to "recharge" it? Does the religious component of their happiness go to a very low level? Does their work productivity suffer in any way?

It sounds to me as if you wish to manipulate the people without recognizing what role religion already has well beyond simply building a church. But perhaps it's just that I am slow to understand what you are talking about.

(23-06-2011 02:08 PM)CoconutKid Wrote:  It sounds to me as if you wish to manipulate the people without recognizing what role religion already has well beyond simply building a church. But perhaps it's just that I am slow to understand what you are talking about.

The "yelping" I was referring to is a combination of A) The Religious Faction being unhappy B) The loud-mouthed radio announcers griping about the lack of Church/Cathedral and C) Overall happiness being down if you fail to appease the religious.

All I'm saying is that I'd like religion in Tropico 4 to have a more active component, such as some of the examples Fetyukov suggested. I don't doubt the importance of "religious satisfaction" in the lives of Tropicans or real people...it's just the Church/Cathedrals in-game become arbitrary structures you're obliged to build and which drain your treasury.

Anything added that allows Churches/Cathedrals or the Religious Faction to impact gameplay, through building upgrades, edicts or otherwise would be a welcome addition.

(23-06-2011 03:07 PM)Maximo Wrote:  ... C) Overall happiness being down if you fail to appease the religious. ... All I'm saying is that I'd like religion in Tropico 4 to have a more active component, ... Anything added that allows Churches/Cathedrals or the Religious Faction to impact gameplay, ... would be a welcome addition.

O.K. Now I think I understand your point. I don't agree, but that's not important. Thank you for your explanation.

I suspect you might find it interesting that the T1 developers considered the concept of competition between religions in the form of the state church (the pseudo-RC of the final version) and a "Pentacostal Protestant" up-start religion which El Presidente might try to coopt. Naturally, coding time and space sent that one to the cutting room floor.

As a religious man myself, I think this is truly outstanding. I like your idea that you can use the church as a positive force (food, shelter, missionaries, anti-homlessness), like what it is in my church and in much of reality. I also like the idea of using the SBA more.

However, for those thirsting to be MEGA PRESIDENTE, there should also be a setting where you can swap the church's holy teachings with PRESIDENTE INDOCTRINATION. This psuedo-church will lower the happiness of anyone that enters, but also raise their respect of President and has a 15% chance of creating Loyalists. Its "priests" could ideally be dressed like capirote-donning Inquisitors. Presidente Priests do not need an education, and Presidente Bishops only need a high school. However, to blatantly lie and corrupt a faith like this, you have to keep their salary over fifteen units of currency.
Like the Secret Police edict, you can only use it once and you can only choose one building. (Choosing a Cathedral doubles all factors, including decreases and increases.)

With a Presidente Indoctrination Institution, propaganda messages like that of the television, radio, and newspaper have better effectiveness. Loyalist-churning edicts, like the Ideology Book, will cost less and be more effective.

Creating a PII out of a church will disgust the Intellectuals and the Religous, but the Loyalists will never hate you again.


This'll all be an edict, like Secret Police. It'll cost between ten and fifteen thousand, and will lower the religious satisfication permanently. The Religious will probably never forgive you for this, but the Loyalists... oh, the Loyalists...

(21-06-2011 06:29 PM)CoconutKid Wrote:  It's interesting that so many posters seem to be totally anti-religious.

Perhaps Kalypso needs to consider the development of a game which allows players to focus on destroying religion. Perhaps a Roman Era Game about searching out Christians to throw to horrible deaths in the Arenas whilst promoting the worship of Vesta through her Vestal Virgins.

I think that would be popular among gameplayers - especially Xbox fans. Blood and gore with a side dish of sex. Fantastic sweet.

just look at history for all you need to know. all because someone believes in a different god, or has some veiws they feel are supperior. Even going as far as to focus on tiny portions of populations like they are an abomination. *cough gays being married Or she's a witch BURN HER! (call me a wacko, but for some reason i dont think thats waht relgion should be about) the drug induced hippies preaching about peace and love and acceptance. they are typically vilified by the religious. Drinking and drugs are the devils work, your gonna goto hell!

So honestly... this game it really is a lotta fun to just mess with the relgious, for no other reason than you can get out some pent up frustation...



i wont outlaw you.. thats too easy, i will repress you into submission... All religious protestors will be shot ! all that agree will be arrested ! You will worship me as your god... For i am presidente'!

Sure as hell is better than blowing up a building. D


Im all for more ways to mess with the relgious,, and just to be fair.. For all those fun loving religious people that really do believe in a god, and a better place (someone like my grand monther).. a way they can shape there island to please them even more.


But i can say i really love the OP's idea.. those both sound like great church settings and can help a very healthy island aleviate problems from time to time. Seaems like a very well thought out way of dealing with starvation and homeless that any island can have happen for many reasons during growth. Opening up churches to help in these two areas, makes perfect sence, Kudos to the OP.

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My grand mother would love this edict...



Bake sale.. call once every 2 years.. slight increase in revuenue to the church.. (cancels out salleries for 6 months)

Improve religous happiness, Caplitalist grumble as more less money to spend on buying trinkets



and how about another church option to those 2 he listed..

Kniting circle

Only chidren under 13 aka non workers, unemployed, pregant, or retired can attend this church.. has a +40 bonus to religous sasifaction. can have up to 5 churches set to this option..



just think many churches around the island, some helping feed locals, others housing a few groups of homless that that got shipped in.. (homeless would take up worship slots id think)

Food, would just be an extra like a market,

though i think if you had churches housing the homeless the quality of the church should go down. id think., not much but maybe a -5 or -10?, But over all religous would be happier.

Bake sales. Heck yes.

(23-06-2011 08:09 PM)TurtleShroom Wrote:  I like your idea that you can use the church as a positive force (food, shelter, anti-homlessness),

Maybe we could get along after all ( religious and communists )

(22-06-2011 10:10 PM)Maximo Wrote:  Thank you Fetyukov, my point exactly. The Church, as it exists in T3 now, has zero positive impact on how you choose to play; rather it is a necessity for you to build Churches/Cathedrals and appease your whiny religious Tropicans.

Honestly, I can't get through the first 15 minutes of any T3 game without people yelping for a Church to be built. It ain't cheap, it eats up all my early educated workers and it doesn't do anything to 'boost' my society. (Sure, say all you will about how "meaningful" it is in people lives and such, but in Tropcio you don't see the impact of appeasing the religious faction.)

All I'm saying is it'd be great to see the Church have more tools to actually impact gameplay, rather than just being a requirement to build. Fetyukov's "Homes for the Homeless"...where early bums can crash in Church basements...is a perfect example of giving the Church a role to play in your society.

YES! This guy gets it. Making Religious based decisions not as a necessity, but as an advantage.

(22-06-2011 12:07 AM)Che Guevara Wrote:  It's interesting that so many posters seem to be totally anti-religious



CK,I have to disagree with you. It is true most people find religious faction annoying ( me included ) but that doesn't mean we hate religious persons. Ok I sometimes shoot them in game but I would never do that in real life. They are hard to please you can't deny it.

Yep, and on most forums too!
I am happy to say I'm not one of those posters.

(And in T3 I like building militaristic inquisitions. Anyone argues? The priests have assault rifles.)

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(23-06-2011 08:09 PM)TurtleShroom Wrote:  As a religious man myself, I think this is truly outstanding. I like your idea that you can use the church as a positive force (food, shelter, missionaries, anti-homlessness), like what it is in my church and in much of reality. I also like the idea of using the SBA more.

However, for those thirsting to be MEGA PRESIDENTE, there should also be a setting where you can swap the church's holy teachings with PRESIDENTE INDOCTRINATION. This psuedo-church will lower the happiness of anyone that enters, but also raise their respect of President and has a 15% chance of creating Loyalists. Its "priests" could ideally be dressed like capirote-donning Inquisitors. Presidente Priests do not need an education, and Presidente Bishops only need a high school. However, to blatantly lie and corrupt a faith like this, you have to keep their salary over fifteen units of currency.
Like the Secret Police edict, you can only use it once and you can only choose one building. (Choosing a Cathedral doubles all factors, including decreases and increases.)

With a Presidente Indoctrination Institution, propaganda messages like that of the television, radio, and newspaper have better effectiveness. Loyalist-churning edicts, like the Ideology Book, will cost less and be more effective.

Creating a PII out of a church will disgust the Intellectuals and the Religous, but the Loyalists will never hate you again.


This'll all be an edict, like Secret Police. It'll cost between ten and fifteen thousand, and will lower the religious satisfication permanently. The Religious will probably never forgive you for this, but the Loyalists... oh, the Loyalists...

Want that one...

Why not that when you activate Inquisition all you priests and or bishops become Inquisitors, being religious spies and or soldiers.

(29-06-2011 09:42 PM)Il Presidente Wrote:  Why not that when you activate Inquisition all you priests and or bishops become Inquisitors, being religious spies and or soldiers.

Want that one too.