I don't want to be the Evil Corporation
Bored. looking for something to do. I decided to check to see if there were a New Patch for Patrician 4 that eliminated the necessity to fight pirates, you know, that made fighting pirates optional. Sad to say, I have found no such patch.

I don't play the game as it is, you know, with all the oppressive pirate activity, because I don't want to play a Combat game. I wanted to play an "Economic Simulation" game.

Remember the movie "RoboCop" or movies like it, where there is a huge, rich, powerful and evil corporation, so rich and so powerful that it has its own military and rivals the government itself? In the movie "RoboCop", iirc, the evil corporation was attempting to do away with government itself.

I don't want to be that corporation. I don't want to play a game where I am forced to be a business that must create a huge military and become the government itself.

I can't believe that a European based company would produce a game in which players have no choice but to become the evil corporation, with a huge military and aspirations to control the local government. (In America, Europe is always portrayed as 'progressive, open, enlightened, etc. not militaristic and oppressive)

I want to play an Economic Simulation, not a combat game. I want to trade goods and help grow culture and the standard of living. I want to constantly transport grain, meat and beer to Novgorod, to help them get through the harsh winters, so that they can sustain their own local growth. And when Novgorod is florishing, take pride in knowing that my business efforts helped.

As the game is now, its so senseless no one even bothers with so much as an attempt at an explaination as to why there must be so much Combat and military development in an "Economic Simulation" game.

Hopefully, whoever buys the rights to Patrician and develops Patrician V, will give players a choice between being a bloodthirsty, psychotic egomaniac hellbent on world domination through military conquest or a responsible, ethical businessman who just wants to develop a People-Friendly business and help grow culture.

Hopefully, whoever develops Patrician V won't try to make an "Economic-First-person-shooter-Simulation" like Kalypso did.
I agree that the game _does_ push the player towards being an evil person in a "Nothing personal; it's just business" kind of way. You start with the continual appeals to provide ships as pirates. Then there are all manner of shady characters offering to be saboteurs acting on your behalf. Then when you become Councilman, half the lords are demanding that you "Cause a famine in _____" or "Cause a recession in _____," etc. And, of course, pretty much anytime you can just run up the Jolly Roger and attack any nearby ships for fun and profit. With the exception of "Economic refugees", pretty much EVERY available mission at the Tavern involves an evil act. (Even buying "Cheap goods" helps pirates make a profit from their stolen merchandise.)

The closest thing to being a nice guy in this game is to champion a useful project in a town, or to throw outrageous amounts of money at lords to make them NOT besiege towns, or to hunt pirates (which is itself a for-profit activity).

Definitely not a good game to be a Good Guy. If you want to be a Good Guy, simply do NOT do most of the activities that are available to you -- which is like buying a car and then never taking it out of first gear.
"Until you know what is worth dying for, Life isn't worth living."

"Choose wisely."
do you have suggestion for quests that are more useful for traders?
most mission suggestions i remember where small stuff like
- build/buy one building
- bring one guy from A to B
- get some good to help out
nothing that would be a real challenge for a huge company
but perhaps thats not your goal and buying 15 wool here and sell them there is therefore a challenge in your gameplay
(there is nothing wrong with playing a small buisness .. but for me i tend to spend most of the game time with an big company after 1-2 years)
Well, this is a business simulation after all, and the #1 goal of a business is to make money, and as we all know, "Money is the root of all Evil".

So, you WILL become a successful businessman making _lots_ of money. Just what kind of Good Guy actions would be available to such a person? Carnegie was famous for donating libraries practically everywhere -- while at the same time he bent over backwards to crush any employee unionization (employee welfare concerns) at every turn. Henry Ford brought affordable transportation to "common folk everywhere", while at the same time crushing his laborers as well. Thomas Edison gave us electric light, and then conducted a concerted campaign to slander, malign, and demonize his competitors. The more I look at Big Businesses, the more they look like legalized Mafia operations. It seems that practically everything is a viable option, as long as they result in MORE PROFIT.

It seems that Good Guys (altruistic heroes) do NOT go into business as a means to do good deeds. The closest thing to a corporate good deed is to ease their troubled conscious is to make charitable donations (which are usually tax deductible). Along those lines, we already have the ability to contribute LARGE sums of money to build cathedrals and universities and the like. Then those considerable "donations" to the local lords keep the armies away from the town gates. Other than that, once you are Mayor, you can build many structures that beautify and/or benefit everyone in town.

Pretty much, it just boils down to you choosing to NOT do many of the options the game throws your way. What remains are the few things that would be made available to a big, powerful, successful businessman.
"Until you know what is worth dying for, Life isn't worth living."

"Choose wisely."
(26-06-2011, 01:14 AM)Trader Steele Wrote:  I decided to check to see if there were a New Patch for Patrician 4 that eliminated the necessity to fight pirates, you know, that made fighting pirates optional. Sad to say, I have found no such patch.

As said many times before, piracy is a part of Patrician IV and there will be no option to turn them off. Many features are depending on pirates.
Furthermore, there was piracy at that time and the hanseatic traders had to protect their ships, money and goods by force of arms.
If you don't want to fight, you'll have to use the auto-fight option (instead of manual). You don't have to attack, but sometimes you will have to defend, but it is your chioce wheather you want to fight(manual or auto) or not(give them your goods/ships).
Many users are upgrading their convoys to max. armed Hulks, so they don't get attacked by pirates.

There is nobody forced to do 'evil things', but there may be a chance of getting higher profits if you do so...

Best regards, Daan
I found this thread to be dreadfully comical. I mean, come on... ethical discussions on game plots? And the OP basically calling for socialistic utopia? The first thing that came to mind is, "Please don't complain about a historical game. Go do something else with your concerns. Changing the critical nature of the game to something else means that you simply want to play a different game besides this one. Go do that."

Making profits is not evil. Doing well in business is not evil. Being a corporation (going into business with others and other's capital), large or small, is not evil. Protecting or propagating your interests (even worldwide) is not evil. Money is not evil. (If we are going to quote the Bible in a Patrician IV forum, then let's turn to 1 Timothy 6:10 where it says, "For the love of money is a root of all kinds of evil, for which some have strayed from the faith in their greediness, and pierced themselves through with many sorrows." NKJ) In reality, people are evil. If you do not want to be evil, then don't be evil. If you want to be evil yet excuse yourself, then you will do that too. If you want to be evil and pride yourself, then you will do that too. Forming a business enterprise that includes defending your assets through proactive means is the natural process of human interaction with each other. When markets are free, people flourish. When markets are not free (because of government intervention, criminal activity, monopolies, etc.), then people suffer. This is why we strive to rid the world of pirate activity, for example, as crime works against freedom.

In defense of Patrician IV, which I still consider to be just a short distance from being fully finished (those mod tools would sure come in handy, folks, plus a number of bug fixes), I knew what I was getting having played Patrician III. If combating medieval terrorists (like modern day terrorists) on ships were to bother me, then I'd know not to play Patrician IV, as that is central to the setting, genre, and series. After all, historically speaking, fending off pirates (criminals acting outside the laws of nations and morality) was as necessary back in the 14th Century as it is today. Bringing the fight to your enemy is not evil if your aim is to make your enemy better or to subdue their evil. Disregarding enemies in life, on the other hand, sets you up for great harm (if they let you live). Defending oneself and competing with others are just two cornerstones of human nature, and individual freedom - something that socialism frowns upon - is what brings out the best in everyone. Hence, good games like Patrician IV present nice ways for us to utilize real-life models for their gameplay, which is why they make sense and are fun.

Also, the Patrician series is noted for its multi-genre gameplay. It features business- and town-building, business and town management, diplomacy/politics, and naval combat. (This is why I bought the game: putting all of these genres into one game is sweet!) Not only are all of these within a well-researched historical setting (check out the credits of the series), but each one features anything from action to strategy to simulation in every game played. War and business have always been the most popular game genres in human history, and the Patrician series combines the two. This is why I bought the game and love playing it, especially in the style that the Patrician series is known for.

As for the OP's arguments on 'corporate militaries,' being "evil," socialist European dogma (which America has rejected since its founding exactly 235 years ago, this Monday), and unwarranted name-calling against capitalist enterprises (citing RoboCop antagonists?), let me just say that this fanciful belief system of the OP is right to be excluded from nearly every video game, especially those based on history and real-life human nature. There is more peace and good when people are free, which includes two crucial aspects of human responsibility: that their liberties are defended by their governments (such as free markets, where the exchange of goods and services for rightfully earned negotiable tender based on the free choices of the acting parties takes place), and that their governments govern by the consent of the governed (which the world does not know except for in America and a few other places that recognized our righteousness). The publicly declared notion that Mankind is "endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty, and the pursuit of Happiness" is obviously not something the world has seen since just a relatively short time ago; and there remains only one real place to find this in practice in the world. Understand what this means, and perhaps you can understand why socialist utopias don't exist in real life, which would make a game based on them either incoherent or utterly dull. And a world without war is a world without sin, and you don't live in that world, dude. (Neither did the Hanseatic League participants, on which this game is based.) Pray that your Creator created a real utopia that we can go to later, with His blessing. And pray that it is even better than whatever you can come up with.
Just remember The Ferengi Rules of Acquisition.

34. Peace is good for business.
35. War is good for business.

Dont remeber who said this but i guess it applys.

"If you research deep enough every war in the history of man has been about money."

I agree with some of your points; others I beg to disagree.

(02-07-2011, 11:05 PM)Snootch Wrote:  Making profits is not evil. Doing well in business is not evil. Etc.

Quite true. Money and the making of money and the spending of money is NOT evil in and of itself. It is no more inherently evil than guns, TNT, cannons, flamethrowers, bombs, nuclear weapons, et al. It is _how_ these things are used that may be evil. Or conversely, righteous. Yet, all these things have something of a Bad Reputation, overall. Why? Because they represent power, and MANY people (not necessarily the majority, thank God or whoever) cannot resist the opportunity to apply power to enhance their situation at the expense of others.

Operating a (usually small) business can be rewarding in many, many ways, for more than just the people running the company. Employees earn wages with which they can provide for their families. Consumers receive a product which improves their lives (hopefully, ignoring crappy products and "planned obsolescence"). The net worth of the community is enhanced. Etc., etc. However, companies take on a life of their own, and eventually the needs/goals of the company supersede the needs/goals of living, breathing, bleeding _people_. Despite the fact that the employees need their wages, their jobs get shipped halfway around the world to where people living in cardboard shacks will do the job for a tiny fraction of what the company had been paying for wages. Good for the company; bad for the ex-employees. Subsequently, the Federal, State, and Local governments lose tax revenue from the now unemployed ex-employees. Good for the company; bad for the government(s). What had been a point of pride for the community -- the local corporate facilities that used to serve as a population magnet for the community -- now is vacant and on its way to being a public eyesore. And on and on. The corporate imperative of doing ONLY what is good for the company results in Bad Things for everybody else.

Is ^^that^^ an indication of corporations being inherently "evil"? Whatever it is, I can't imagine that this all-too-common pattern is a Good Thing. It's probably related to "Absolute power corrupts, absolutely." The more a company focuses on that #1 goal of making the greatest amount of money possible, the more people suffer -- and many people will contend that whatever inflicts suffering on people is "evil".

(02-07-2011, 11:05 PM)Snootch Wrote:  There is more peace and good when people are free, which includes two crucial aspects of human responsibility: that their liberties are defended by their governments (such as free markets, where the exchange of goods and services for rightfully earned negotiable tender based on the free choices of the acting parties takes place)

In the long-term, there literally is no such thing as unregulated "free markets". Invariably, in the absence of any kind of regulatory oversight, those with LOTS of money squeeze out the "little guys", first, then they go after the mid-sized operations, until finally all that remains are monopolies -- which, even though they offered lower prices while undercutting their competitors, then turn around and "charge all that the market will bear." When there is only one or two providers of a product, if you need it, you _will_ end up paying through the nose. (Again, good for the company; bad for the people.)

Do you remember what gas cost in 1980? Does about $1.25 sound right? Thirty-one years later the cost is near $4.00 per gallon -- even though the cost of production per gallon is still about the same. Even taking out the taxes that have been piled on (read the stickers on the pumps; it's not as much as you think), about half of what you are paying is a direct result of deregulation and speculation. Additionally, the "independent gas station on the corner" is pretty much extinct; they've all been bought up by Big Oil (and replaced by chains of what look like "little guys" but are, in fact, "affiliates" of Big Oil corporations). This is all a direct result of too much freedom in what is supposedly a "free market".

Overall, you are literally correct: money and making money is not in and of itself "evil". It takes people -- with Free Will of course! -- to use money with evil intent. It just seems that those people with LOTS of money tend to be the ones that get control of companies and then do evil things in order to make more money. So, maybe money is NOT "evil", but lots of money is? Like one bacterium can't hurt you, but LOTS of them _will_ make you sick. You may even die if there's LOTS of them! Big Grin
"Until you know what is worth dying for, Life isn't worth living."

"Choose wisely."
Back to topic.
I'd like to get rid of pirates, entirely. This way I could focus on econ/missions/building the hansa.

I don't care what you think is best and for whatever reasons, I play PC games in no small part because we get more choices. I want this choice.
We noticed that, but that will definitly not be possible as you can read here: http://forum.kalypsomedia.com/showthread.php?tid=9745&pid=95437#pid95437

Kind regards, Daan

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